Single hen

[pagesguineas]

Hello, me again! In need of some advice!

 

Finally tracked down a beautiful fawn mini lop buck to accompany my misty , he's currently 9 weeks old. We picked him up today, and have started the introduction phase. Obviously as we got a boy we'd have thought he'd try to dominate her immediately. Quite the opposite happened! Once he had settled in a bit, we put him in her cage, and vice versa, to get them used to each other's smell. we then let new man run round the lounge with misty in her cage, and they were sniffing each other pleasantly. We thought to get them both out and hold them next to each other with caution. When we did, misty moved over to him and sniffed his head, then proceeded to try and pull the fur and whiskers on the front of his face. He just sat there are let her do it, so i quickly separated them back to their cages. I'm not sure if she was trying to play, or whether she was starting a fight/bullying him. Lots of information on the internet says get them both neutered to succeed, but we want to breed out two hopefully!

 

Any help desperately wanted, were already attached to new bunny (although can't decide on a name) and do not want to let him go back to his breeder

 

Thanks

Catherine

[bigmommasally]

I'm not an expert but I think if you want the rabbits to bond and live together then you can't mate them. If you breed them you need to keep them seperately and just put them together to mate.

I think you should think seriously before breeding, there are many many rabbits needing homes and you won't find it that easy finding homes for your buns. The rabbits you end up breeding won't be pure pedigree rabbits and will only sell to the pet market for a few pounds, so it is a very expensive hobby.

 

Please Please look at these sites and read their information and forums throughly before trying to breed your rabbits.

 

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/

 

http://www.goldenbunnies.org.uk/showthread.php?t=9188

 

If you still want to breed after reading these sites I think you should contact a breeder near you and learn from them what you need to do. From what I've read lots can go wrong and you could easily lose your doe.

 

Sorry to be a wet blanket to your idea but I think it best to be honest with you. Hope you're not offended.

[victoriabunny]

Please don't breed your rabbits. Rescue centres are full to the brim with unwanted ones - some are turning rabbits away because they are full to capacity. In addition, breeding rabbits is not as simple as you'd think and lots can go wrong - would you know when your female was in danger and in need of a caesarean? If she abandons the babies (relatively common with first time mums) would you know how to hand-rear - and have the time? Hand-reared newborns need feeding every three hours round the clock, and even if you do that the odds that they will survive are small. Finding homes for the babies can be very difficult, and how will you know that they aren't just going to be presents for children who will love them for five minutes and then leave them to rot in a small hutch in the garden, as is sadly still the fate for so many rabbits? Plus, as bigmommasally said, they will not bond if you wish to mate them - the male will constantly try to mate the female (and will succeed) so they will have to be kept separately at all times if she is not to be constantly pregnant (rabbits are induced ovulators - they don't have seasons like other animals, but instead mating induces the rabbit to release eggs to be fertilised. In effect, this means females are constantly fertile and can get pregnant within twelve hours of giving birth, even whilst suckling youngsters).

 

I'm sorry for turning this into a lecture but this is something I feel very strongly about. Amateur breeding, however well-intentioned, is the single biggest cause of so many rabbits ending up in rescues. Please, please don't do it.

 

So what should you do? Well, unfortunately you have got your rabbits the wrong way round. Females are much more territorial and dominant than males, so she sees your house as her territory. It's always easier to introduce a new female to an existing male than the other way round. It can be done with an existing female, but it's a more difficult process and will take time - don't expect them to get on straight away.

 

First, don't put him in her cage. That's her territory, and she won't welcome the intrusion. Put them both in a neutral space where she has never been - the bathtub can be ideal. Watch them carefully. If they start washing each other, they have accepted each other. Let them scuffle a bit, but if she starts attacking him, separate them. She may mount him - this is a sign of dominance and isn't anything to worry about. One of them has to be dominant, and the sooner they work out which one it is, the sooner they'll start to get on.

 

Repeat this process every day until they are tolerating each other. Keep them separate at other times. When they're fine in the bath, you can start putting them together in other areas of the house. Please don't leave them unsupervised until he is neutered. At nine weeks, he won't be fertile yet, but he will be approaching puberty fast and there is a chance he could get her pregnant. Start checking between his legs daily - when his testicles appear, he is ready to be neutered. For a mini lop, this will typically be any time between 12-16 weeks of age. If he is neutered promptly, they can be reunited the day after the operation (provided they have bonded by then and she won't injure him) but if you leave it til he is any older, he could remain fertile for up to a month after mating. She should also be spayed - unspayed rabbits have an 80% chance of developing uterine cancer (this is what kills most of them in the wild, if a predator doesn't get there first) and the only way to prevent this is a hysterectomy. She will also be prone to phantom pregnancies if she is not spayed, and will be more hormonal - spayed rabbits make much friendlier pets. She can be spayed from six months of age.

[pagesguineas]

Hello, thanks for your comments. I've looked very closely into breeding rabbits, and decided i want to go ahead. I am not a stupid person, I have planned everything meticulously. I have 5 people all wanting one of my cross bunnies, and if my doe has more than 5 kits i will keep any unwanted ones myself, so they can lead a long and happy life in my household. I have a friend that is a veterinary nurse, and she will be called if there are any complications in pregnancy or birth. I also plan to have Misty spayed and the new bunny castrated once they have had one litter. I appreciate your concerns but i really have thought the breeding thing through long and hard.

 

All i need advice on is how to get them to live in peace (or as peaceful as we can get) in the meantime. The breeder i got mini lop from had successfully got her mum and dad bunnies to live together before they mated, and as I know this is dependent on the rabbit, I am going to try my hardest to persuade them two to get along. I read on the internet to get a spray bottle, fill it with water and spray the fight initiator with it, I thought this was a bit mean?!

 

They will run around and play quite happily with each other when separated by mesh, they hardly take any notice of each other! It's when they are free together Misty starts pulling the other one's fur out, so that's when i need to act!

 

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

 

Catherine

[bigmommasally]

Hi Catherine

Have you looked on the Rabbits Rehome and Golden Bunnies sites (see links above in my previous post) they have lots of info re bonding. I think I had it easy with my first 2 bunnies Priscilla and Teddy, they were both boys (though we thought Priscilla was a girl to start with) and for them it was virtually love at first sight, we put them in a neutral room together and it was really very easy, lots of mounting each other but nothing nasty and then were soon grooming each other.

 

Unfortunately poor Teddy died after just 2 months so I need to do the whole bonding thing again.

 

Priscilla has now been castrated and we have now got Penny a rescued mini lop who has just been spayed this week. I decided to leave bonding until after Penny was spayed as they have to be kept apart after a spay for 10 days and I didn't want to bond - seperate - and rebond. Before Penny had her op the buns had seperate hutches and runs side by side in the garden and they were showing very positive signs of liking each other. They use to sit side by side for a major part of the day.

I have a new bigger hutch and run on order so when Penny is recovered I shall be putting them in new terrority together. Fingers crossed bonding will be pretty smooth though I don't expect it to be as easy as Teddy & Priscilla - I think the fact that they were both only 9-10 weeks helped.

 

I think neutral terrority is a key requirement for successful bonding, hope it goes well for you and your buns, Good Luck

[victoriabunny]

How old is your female? She should not be mated until about 9 months of age to ensure she is physically well developed enough to cope with a pregnancy. She will be fertile when much younger than that though. They simply cannot live together before this age as she will get pregnant too young. You will find as soon as the male is mature he mounts her constantly and mating takes place very quickly. I am not sure how your breeder gets males and females to live together unless she is happy for the females to get pregnant immediately.

 

You have obviously made your decision, but I am afraid I cannot condone it and I suspect you won't find many rabbit experts who will. You have said your female is an English cross, and your male is a mini lop. You will therefore be breeding crossbreed rabbits which simply don't need to exist. If you have friends who are desperate for babies they would be better going to get one from a rescue centre, which always have young kits as well as adults. It is fine saying you have a friend who is a vet nurse but if complications arise they will happen very quickly and usually at night, and you are unlikely to have time to intervene. Rabbits also often mutilate or kill their young, particularly first-time mums, and dealing with this is very distressing. If you are going to do it, make sure you know how to sex babies, and at what age they should be separated from each other and their mother so that her sons cannot mate with her.

 

I'm sorry to sound harsh and judgmental here but that is because I have seen rabbit rescues first-hand and know something of how many rabbits already exist which are desperate for homes. I simply cannot see the justification for bringing more rabbits into the world - perhaps if you were breeding pedigrees to a breed-standard, but even then it is a job for experts.

[pepe]

I agree with Victoriabunny, I would never buy from a breeder again, there are so many bunnies neeeding homes in rescue centres, sorry to be so negative, but if you want to breed you really need to have done your homework on bonding first and its implications!

[pagesguineas]

Update! We've been keeping the duo separate, mr going in his cage in the run and misty in the run, and of course vice versa! We put them out this morning, and went out an hour later, only to find out that Mr had escaped from his cage somehow (he must have slid the top entry across and jumped out!) and they were both sitting there nibbling away at their food and grooming each other...after all that worrying about the first proper meet and them not getting on! We supervised them closely for the rest of the day, they seem to be inseparable! So glad we have two happy bunnies now!

 

Rung the vet earlier too, she told us Mr won't be sexually active till about 6 months old, he certainly is not now! Will decide what to do regarding kits closer the time. Thanks for all your comments.

 

Catherine

[Alfred]

Slightly off the topic, but what is the problem with breeding crossbred rabbits as opposed to pedigrees?

Certainly with dogs and cats, the mongrels or moggies are far healthier than the pedigrees, so from an animal welfare point of view you are better off with a cross.

I would have thought it would be the same with rabbits - hybrid vigour and all that?

Some of the new rabbit breeds such as lionheads are so inbred that they have no end of problems with their teeth (and probably other things too)

Pedigree 'standards' are all about looks as opposed to health or suitability as a pet or temperament.

As long as you have thought through all the possibilities (and can afford emergency vet treatment if required) and have homes for the babies I can't see a problem.

Good luck!

[pagesguineas]

Can I just say, thankyou Alfred for the first positive comment of this whole thread! I totally agree with you, most people prefer crossbreeds as family pets, they are healthier and happier. I didn't like the theory that "You will therefore be breeding crossbreed rabbits which simply don't need to exist". I believe that crossbreed rabbits are just as important as pedigrees, and I also believe that with every other animal. I may sound a hypocrite when I reveal that my dog is a pedigree Papillon, but just listen to this. The breeder we got him from said he was close to the finest dog she had ever had, she was going to take him all the way to Crufts. He then grew 2cm to tall, so she stopped taking him to classes, put him in a small kennel, and posted a small advert for a family pet. When we got him a few months later, he was terrified of humans, he would bolt away from anyone new. He literally cowered on the floor when a bike, car, rollerblading person came along. He was a nervous wreck, and it took him years (and he is still rehabilitating) to get used to living in a town. This is what put me off breeding dogs to pedigree standard for showing. My beloved Copper was not "perfect breed dimensions", so he had the first year of his life ruined, and is still paying for it even now with his fearfulness. Luckily we got to him in time.

 

I know this is nothing to do with the thread, just something I feel passionate about.

 

Thanks

Catherine

[victoriabunny]

There is nothing wrong with crossbreed bunnies themselves, of course - the problem is breeding them when rescue centres are over-run with them. I don't like people breeding bunnies at all whilst there are so many in rescue centres, but I think the only justification for doing it is at least to improve a pedigree which is being bred to a breed standard. Contrary to popular belief, cross-breeding does not "breed out" bad features, but can pass them on - you cited the example of bad teeth. Bad teeth (maloccusion) is something buns are very prone to, and a reputable breeder will only breed from rabbits proven not to have it. Sadly it can be passed on by crossbreeding and actually crossbreeds are more likely to have it as it is unlikely that their parents were checked carefully for it before they were bred. I certainly don't have a problem with crossbred anything - my dog is a wonderful Heinz 57 from the dogs' home - my problem is with allowing them to come into existence in the first place. When rescue centres are overflowing with cute baby crossbreeds, adding to the number in existence just can't be justified, in my opinion.

 

Pages, I'm glad your bonding is going well and that the rabbits are living separately. I am very sceptical about your vet's advice re the age at which your male will become mature, though - my male mini-lop hit puberty at 11 weeks of age. He had been living with his sister up until that point whilst they were both babies together, and I was waiting for him to mature enough to be neutered. As soon as he was 11 weeks old he needed to be separated from her as he was mounting her constantly. She wasn't old enough to get pregnant at the time, but he would certainly have had results with an older female. Make sure you check every day for signs of testicles descending.

[pagesguineas]

Victoriabunny, my rabbits are not living separately. I have spoken to an experienced vet about things, mr bunny is now around 10 weeks old and has not yet showed any interest in mounting her. Reaching puberty and actually getting to the point of mating are separate things, especially as Misty doesn't mature until around 6 months. And we would never let any of our bunnies to go a rescue centre, simply because they have no standard of life there, bunnies are meant to be free to run around, not kept in a cage. :)I do however thank you for you strong opinions.

 

catherine

[Alfred]

I think you can hardly be expected to take responsibility for other people's mistakes in breeding too many babies, or acquiring pets that they then no longer want. It is sad that there are so many unwanted rabbits/cats/dogs/children in rescue centres and orphanages around the world. But that doesn't stop people wanting to have their own children, or breed from their own pets.

 

Also, unfortunately, most breeders are not aware of their animals health problems. After all if you breed rabbits at 6 months old and sell the babies at 8 weeks, there will not be time for any dental problems to have developed. The only way to 'prove' a rabbit did not have a dental problem would be to wait for it to die of old age never having had any tooth problems! In addition the majority of breeders hardly ever take their animals to a vet (they are generally unvaccinated for a start)(even for cats and dogs) so when is this tooth checking taking place?

 

An xray of the adult rabbits skull is needed to check for dental problems, when they are old enough to allow problems to have started - ie at least 2 years old! Show me a breeder that does this!

 

Whilst cross breeding can't guarantee to get rid of a bad feature, it does make it much less likely to appear in the offspring than if the affected animal is bred with a close relative or member of the same breed. (Ideally of course you would not breed from the affected animal at all - but that assumes you were aware of the problem at the time of breeding. Sadly many breeders continue to breed from animals that have health problems, either physical or behavioural, simply because they want to make a profit)

 

Another issue with breeders is that their animals (even though valuable and treasured) are usually kept in far worse conditions than the average family pet - rabbits generally in small hutches, cats in cages, dogs in pens outside. These animals may be well fed and clean, but they are missing out on the stimulation/access to outdoors and exercise that pets take for granted. They are often shy and timid - a sign of poor socialisation (like catherine's dog).

 

When getting a pet I would go for a family pet that had had a litter (or a rescue) over a pedigree animal from a breeder any time.

 

(I hope you won't mind my strong opinions either!)