eggmayo Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Hi, Hope someone out there can offer some advice. I'm worried about the Varroa levels in my hive. I got my bees as a nuc in July with a locally bred 2010 queen, kept in a National. Bees built up well and were put to overwintering with a full super of honey below the brood box and a full super (-2 empty frames) above the brood box. Varroa levels were low through the summer. I was getting a natural mite drop of around 3 per day. I did a couple of icing sugar dustings during August and a series of 3 HiveClean treatments late August/early September. At the beginning of December natural mite drop was 3 per day. On 12th December I treated with oxalic acid (3.2%-Thornes Trickle 2-used as soon as it arrived) and treated 8 seams of bees using a total of 40ml. Air temperature nearby was 7 degrees C at time of treatement. Monitoring tray was put in and on 18th, there was a mite count of 533 (88/day) and a further 80 on 23rd Dec (16/day). I assumed that the treatment had been successful and removed the monitoring tray. On 2nd Jan there were about 400 dead bees on the OMF. I lifted the crown board for a quick peek and the bees were active. The monitoring tray was put back in. On 8th Jan 64 varroa were on the inspection tray (10.6 per day), on 14th a further 47 (7.8/day). Today bees are out flying and they have taken the dead bees out of hive. The ones that are out look healthy. There's also been wax on the montoring tray, so they've been uncapping and eating honey and still have plenty of stores left (just from a quick lift of the crown board). Today there were also a couple of wax scales on the monitoring tray too. Am I right in assuming my oxalic acid treatment not worked properly? If so, I'm not sure what I should do now, as I've been told that you shouldn't do a second treatment of oxalic acid on the same have during winter, as it's too toxic for the bees. I'm not aware of anything else that can be used this time of year. Thanks, Gail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Speckled Hen Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 You need RAB and I'm sure he'll be along soon. I think you can do a Thymol treatment, such as Apiguard in Feb/March. It won't be as effective as an autumn treatment as the temperature is still quite low. Did you do a thymol treatment in August/Sept? This gives your winter bees a good start to overwinter with a low varroa burden. The trouble with mites not knocked down in the autumn is that they will damage your overwintering bees. 400 dead bees is not too high a figure if the colony has till now been unable to get out because of the weather. Whereabouts are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggmayo Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Thanks for the reply. I didn't do a thymol treatment in autumn, as the natural mite drop was low at the time and I thought I'd only need the oxalic acid during the winter. I've since learnt that natural mite drop isn't always a good indicator of number of mites actually present. We're in Lancashire and the bees have hardly been out since early December as most of the time it has been really cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Speckled Hen Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I'll probably be shot down for this comment by anybody else looking in on this thread BUT might it be worth considering another oxalic treatment? A second treatment is a documented possibility. I have been reading the oxalic debate on another beekeeping forum and second treatments are done. However..having said all that.......Mites drop for four(maybe more) weeks after oxalic treatment. Figures I've read show between 75 and 97% dropping in the first week and 1 and 5% in the fourth and subsequent weeks. If it were me I'd put my tray back in and monitor for another 2 weeks and then make a decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Gail, Sorry to find you have a varroa problem at this time of the year, and I would not really be sure if I was going to treat or not, but it seems like you would prefer to do something rather than take the risk until spring. A few comments and a possible plan. OSH has pretty much gone through the problem for you. icing sugar dustings A waste of effort IMO. There may only be 15-20% phoretic mites and dusting may not be so effective on them, anyway. Sugar dusting/rolling can be a very effective weapon when broodless after doing an A/S, otherwise not much chance of getting many mites. series of 3 HiveClean treatments Have seen a couple of reports where these treatments have been used and the thymol drop was horrendous. I don't use them. At this time of the year you have obviously have dificulty in treating and I, for one, would not advise a further oxalic acid trickle although our expert from Finland says differently (see this link http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=103981#post103981 ). I would monitor carefully and likely treat them with Apistan or Bayvarol as an emergency (without knowing the resistance shown by the mites, to pyrethroids, in your area). You may only get half of the mites but that is better than losing your colony. Trouble is the application may really interfere with the bees, especially with three boxes on. (Perhaps you can justify to us why you have left them with so much stores!! 20kg is the usual target and yours may have been around 35-40kg!!) I would pick a warm day when they are flying and have everything absolutely ready to hand to just insert the strips between the frames and close up. The crownboard should be off much less than a couple of minutes if it were on a single box or the bees were in the top box, so there is some risk in doing this, but little other choice until maybe March/April when apiguard could be used if warm enough (OK it would still get a lot but not be ultra efficient). An alternative may be a further oxalic treatment by sublimation as that method appears less risky than repeated trickling. You would really need to find out if any beek in your local BKA has the kit for this, but it might be an option. I am not sure why the drop rate has suddenly become so apparent, so I would arm myself with some strips and watch that mite drop carefully and decide on which to risk - not treat until spring or open now. Whatever you do and whichever way you go please post back. Varroa are a problem and I now attack them whenever I have the opportunity, but rarely these days do I treat with oxalic (not in the past 5 winters). The beekeepingforumdotcodotuk is a far better place to be for actual beekeeping, but the search facility is a bit limited. Do you have the DEFRA/FERA publication on 'Managing Varroa'. It is also available as a download from 'beebase' I believe. Remember varroa is your number one on-going enemy. They never give up! Other problems are never wanted to be seen, but these little mites are a real continuous pain for the bees. Quite a few have complained that natural mite drops have not been indicative of the infestation levels this last season. I don't rely on just those -observation at inspections is a necessary means to keeping ahead of them. I never rely on one eradication method either - a treatment can fail. You may already have done enough for them to get through to spring without too much trouble (who can tell whether any particular colony will over-winter well) and these are the tail end of the infestation. Good luck. Regards, RAB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Speckled Hen Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Have a look here at post 26 http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=104001#post104001 The whole thread is very informative also. As RAB says the forum is very very useful if not quite as user friendly as this one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggmayo Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 I've been monitoring closely over the last couple of weeks and for the last 10 days the mite count has reduced suddenly and significantly to an average of 1 per day. Today the bees have been flying (sadly didn't get home from work early enough to see them flying) and they've removed about 40 dead bees from the hive. There is also wax cappings on the monitoring tray, so I'm assuming they are feeding OK still. I'm now thinking that if the mite numbers stay low that I should wait until the weather warms up a bit and do a thymol treatment then? (I've been told thymol works better when weather is a bit warmer?) Should I be having a look on a warm day to see how many bees are in left in the hive? I've got lots of stores on the hive as I was told that they would stand a better chance of survival if I let them with more stores than they need i.e. they'd do better on their own stores, rather than having to feed and that it wouldn't do them any harm. As it's my first colony I wanted to give them the best chance of surviving I could-probably being over-cautious. Do treatments not work as well if there is more space in the hive? Any other reasons for not leaving extra stores? Regards, Gail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Hi Gail, lots of stores I run 14 x 12s. I leave a full box for winter if possible. Sometimes they might have to make do with 10 frames. That is normally more than sufficient to get them to spring and expanding. A 14 x 12 is equivalent to about 1.7 standard deep broods. I can safely harvest any surplus to that. I run OMFs with no top ventilation and insulation on the crownboard I would monitor and not open the hive until a very warm day - with bees flying and foraging strongly. Seeing how many bees are left in the hive will not help a jot. If they are OK, it will have been a wasted effort; if not so many, it would only reduce their chances of survival anyway! I don't like apiguard in the spring as it has upset the lay-rate and she has even stopped laying (just my experience with it). If in a non-resistant area I might well be considering the pyrethroid strips (but for any treatments the surplus supers should be taken off and only apply the treatment during times of no, or very low, flow as the crop could be contaminated with undesirable chemicals). Remember, too, that the full course of treatment over 6 weeks is required if using pyrethroids. To be honest, I no longer use apiguard or apistan as a routine, although I usually have some around for the unexpected problem. Sugar rolling (plus first capped brood removal) or oxalic acid on a broodless colony (both halves of an artificial swarm per eg). Other times, some drone culling or brood trapping. Formic acid later in the summer; thymol in the autumn. Rarely oxalic acid in the winter. Shook swarms are another option. I just avoid oxalic acid treatments on any queens I wish to keep as a potential breeding colony. Most treatments are designed for a single standard deep box. Any deviation from this may make a difference. Hope this lot helps. Regards, RAB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggmayo Posted April 2, 2011 Author Share Posted April 2, 2011 Looks like I was worrying too much. The Varroa levels have dropped and I didn't need to do an emergency treatment. I think it might have been that the treatment took a bit longer to reduce the mite numbers than I had been expecting. Had my first quick peak into the brood box earlier in the week and they seem to be doing well with plenty of eggs, pollen and stores, with bees on 7 frames. I didn't got through all the frames, but stopped as soon as I found eggs. I'm hoping to do a full inspection on the next few days when the weather is a bit better. There's now lots of activity with lots bees coming home laden down with pollen. Some look like they've got sweetcorn kernals stuck to their legs they are bring in so much pollen. Hopefully, fingers crossed, I'll be able to expand into a second hive later in the year and maybe even have some honey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
