MedusA Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Last autumn, after I'd taken off my honey crop, I put a partially-filled super below the brood box to allow the bees to have it for additional winter feed. I would like to remove this before the queen starts using it as an extension of the brood chamber. My questions are.... Is now the time to remove it? If so, what's the best way to do it? Can I reuse the frames in this super for this year's honey crop? My hive is a National, in case that makes any difference to the answer. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Speckled Hen Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Hi Medusa, I have one hive in exactly that situation. I dithered about last year wondering whether to put those stores above or below the brood. If you remove the box in spring it should be largely empty and you can reuse it. I think it's far too early here in Cumbria. It's still winter and I wouldn't want to disrupt the hive. The queen might have started laying in it by the time I do my first inspection. If I take it off too early it will have thymolised sugar and ivy honey in it so I'll have to trash the frames.....but perhaps that will be easier than dealing with brood in it? I'm hoping to get all three into 14x12 this year so hopefully that problem won't arise. Sorry........I seem to have as many questions as you have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedusA Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 What are we like, OSH? I'm thinking all the same things you are. Decisions, decisions...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Several points here. partially-filled super Is this proper honey, or sugar honey (from feeding)? below the brood box I know some do it, but why? The natural place for a bee colony's stores is above the brooding area. It should be filled to ensure it is capped properly (or the honey may ferment) before the bees start to cluster. 'Filled' could mean some outer frames removed (no more than two each side) and insulation blocks added (to reduce the space needed for the colony as they move up, to reduce energy required for keeping warm. But I would hate a 'part filled box' unless the brood was almost the same size. That food, being below the cluster, is inaccessible to the bees in the very cold weather because the cluster would have already moved upwards and the temperature at the bottom of the hive would be far too cold for any individual bees to avoid death at those temperatures. So only OK for when the temperatures are warm enough, which really defeats the object, in my book. I'll have to trash the frames More likely keep and feed back later! I never trash frames unecessarily - the comb is valuable. The simple answer, if there is brood in the frames, is to raise it above the brood chamber at the inspection, fit Q/E and wait 3 weeks. End of problem. OK the brooded cells may be a little discoloured but they are perfectly usable for honey storage (the bees do it all the time). You could 'bruise the cappings' with the hive tool while the super is below and the bees will move the contents up into the brood area, but that may mean she is more likely to be laying in the super (nadir) if the space above becomes restricted by moving those stores. There is always the risk of thymolised sugar honey into any super if the bees need space in the brood box for brooding. They will move it up. This was noted as far back as WWII when dyed sugar was made available to beeks and the following honey crop contained dye (OK, some may have been trying to sell 'sugar honey' as real honey!) Anyway, I reckon many colonies are restricted in their brooding in spring by the brood box still having stores in it. That is why I do not use a Q/E at that time, when she needs all the laying space she can find for the increased lay-rate (cells are going to be occupied for 3 whole weeks, once an egg is there and the bees are generally 2 or 3 days ahead of the queen, what with cleaning and 'polishing' the cells ready for her to lay in them! Say 24 days at full speed and the brood box may well be full before the next cycle! Thinking here deep brood frames with 'honey arch' over the brood nest and the outside two frames (inaccessible for brooding because of temperature fluctuations) and pollen storage reserves. The alternative is to substitute old drawn comb for full frames of stores at that time. Less practicable with just the odd colony (or for a new beekeeper without 'spare' drawn comb), but easy enough for those with more colonies (those frames of stores would likely soon be 'handy' for prepping the early nucs, per eg). hoping to get all three into 14x12 this year I like the format (the beehaus is the same, just like the Dartington, in wood). There are down-sides but I reckon overall, for the hobbyist (those who are able to cope with the larger frames and the heavier brood boxes), it is a good compromise. I have used top space 14 x 12s for about the last eight years and have no intention of removing any ekes, to revert back to standard deep frames, in the foreseeable future. Boxes can even be reduced to 10 frames and 2 insulating dividers for the winter, if needed, and the end-walls can be filled with a suitable panel of 25mm expanded polystyrene, with top insulation under a deep roof and 'hey presto!' a very well insulated hive with plenty of stores and nearly half as big again as a 'Standard Deep National', and with 1.7 times the frame depth above the OMF (which could be partly closed, in Cumbria). A good move, I reckon, as long as the bees can fill the box in the brooding season (and most can, these days). Regards, RAB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Speckled Hen Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Thanks, RAB excellent reply, as ever. Perhaps you should be Omlet's Bee Guru (we have a gardening one), maybe they might pay you with another Beehaus I digress, sorry. I was advised by others, supposedly more experienced, to put the super under.I thought there would be too much space above to heat in the winter. When I moved it under last autumn there was a frenzy of uncapping so I suspect much of it was moved up anyway. My reasoning for trashing was for the presence of much Ivy honey. Anyway, the first inspection will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 OSH, There were a lot of colonies, in your region, short of stores during the summer last season and needed to be fed to avoid starvation. In the summer months they can easily assimilate even rock hard crystallised ivy honey because there is water freely available to assist them to get it dissolved to make brood food. So frames of stores are always a useful commodity, as long as there are no health issues involved. Regards, RAB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Speckled Hen Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Thanks for that. If there are any Ivy stores left I'll put the frames in the freezer to use as needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedusA Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 Thanks for the information everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
