Poorly chicken

[Lesley]

Saturday - First inspection - no eggs, no brood, no queen........again

 

Sunday - First apiary meeting - lack of interest, lack of help, lack of mentoring........again

[Olly]

Oh Lesley - that is such a shame. I'm beginning to realise how lucky I am to have such a good group. Is there not another one somewhere else in the area that you could join? You'd think they would be glad to pass on their experience.

[Lesley]

We've already moved from the large group we started with to a smaller one for this reason. There is one more group which is very local but I've lost the will to live now.

 

Our current group are very keen on breeding from bees as close to the native dark bees as possible and hold queen rearing sessions but asking how we can continue without buying in nucs doesn't elicit much more than a shrug of shoulders.

 

We attended beginners courses with both groups and all the talk was of supplying the first nuc of bees and having a mentor - I'm sure we weren't the only ones but we've never been given any bees, we have to buy ours and as for a mentor.....I know we have a rural smallholding but anyone would think we lived in the Outer Hebrides We were so full of enthusiasm.

 

We have managed to get two beekeepers - at separate times - to come and see our set-up and all is fine there.

 

We started at the worst possible time and have suffered from three really poor summers and a very cold winter. It is difficult to get through to people that it is difficult to use frames of drawn comb if your poor nuc has never managed to get very far with that. We've not been able to have more than one nuc, or a swarm which we collected once, at any one time so manipulation between hives has not been possible.

 

Carl wants to continue but I'm reluctant to keep throwing good money after bad...........

 

I seem to have hi-jacked this thread now - I'll ask for my posts to be moved to a separate thread....

[MedusA]

My heart goes out to you, Lesley. It must be so demoralising for you. It can't help when the rest of us newbies keep waxing lyrical on how well our colonies have come through the winter.

 

I really don't know what to suggest, but you seem to have come so far it would be a shame to stop now. Your luck has to change sometime soon, surely? Could your difficulties be due to the local environment? By that I mean things like availability of forage across the season, or if local farmers use pesticides which could be harmful to the bees etc.

 

Like Olly, I belong to a very positive BKA and although you do get conflicting information at times, they are generally very supportive. I got my nuc of bees through the association, for which I paid £50 - half of which goes to the association and half goes to Bees Abroad which we sponsor.

 

I do hope this year is better for you and your bees. *hugs*

[Daphne]

I'm sorry to hear this as well Lesley - I think of you as 'Our woman in Beeland' as you've been doing it longer but you are so on our wavelength. I am also lucky to have advice from at least 3 people, one of whom is my mentor. Is there a neighbour person anywhere close by who keeps bees that you could call on, maybe outside the BBKA. Tangential thought - our vets are a farm practice so know everything about everybody; could you ask yours if anybody keeps bees (I know they won't use the vet for the bees )? Also, our swarm catcher is most approachable as he really has to know what he is doing to be comfortable doing it - is yours approachable? Another thought, which I hesitate to suggest, is maybe posting for a mentor; I think the other forum may offer this option.....but I realise the implications! Actually I've just thought of something else and will pm.

 

I also wonder if there is something difficult in your environment - could there be lingering disease in the hives (I really don't know what I'm talking about here, clutching at straws but I know if you get a 2nd hand hive you have to clean it to within an inch of its life) or as MedusA says, too many sprays on the fields? I started with a swarm (albeit late) which was ready to work hard maybe thats a way forward rather than a nuc.

[chickenanne]

Oh, poor you. It must be just so frustrating and demoralizing. Don't give up yet: even the best beek loses colonies over the winter occasionally. And (sorry!) this seems to happen more commonly with non-local stock which are maybe not as able to deal with the local climate. Maybe if you do decide to buy in another nuc you could see if you could obtain a local queen to replace the bought one? Again, this depends a lot on drumming up some local help.

A poorly-mated queen or older queen is more likely to fail over the winter; it could well be due to that, and sadly you can't really do THAT much about having a poorly-mated queen if you only have one colony - it depends on weather, local drones, etc.

 

I do know most associations are REALLY struggling to supply bees to beginners, as there is so much demand. Beginners courses in the last couple of years have had huge numbers on them- so there's also a huge lack of mentors to look after the huge number of beginners. Perhaps some of the apparant lack of interest stems from a feeling of not being able to offer help? Or (apologies, again!) people feeling that if you buy in non-local stock then they will struggle.

It's pretty catch-22: local associations are unable to meet the demand for bees, but don't want non-local bees, which puts beginners in an incredibly frustrating and difficult position. I count myself extremely lucky to have been able to buy bees from the association when I was starting out last year, but I know this years beginners will be unlikely to all be able to do the same. It's hugely difficult for even the best associations - most want to encourage local bees and discourage bought-in nucs, but are unable to supply the numbers needed. Our association makes a charge for nucs to encourage members to try to supply beginners - so people get some sort of financial reward for the time they spend as well as the satisfaction. They will still be horribly short of bees for beginners though, even if the summer is great.

 

Would you consider offering to help out a more experienced beek with their bees and apiary? That way you gain expertise and experience, and if all goes well then they are likely to be keen to help set you up with bees when /if they manage to make increase themselves. I'm sure some people would welcome help with keeping apiary sites in good state (cutting back vegetation and the like) in return for you getting some occasional hands-on experience.

[Lesley]

Thank you all for your replies.

 

I'll see if I can give a potted history......

 

We started off in June 2007 with a nuc which we bought from a member of the first group we were with. They did really well through that poor summer and we took off a little of the honey (10lbs) and left most of it as stores. We also added fondant to get them through the winter. They weren't a large colony and despite there being food straight above them, they starved. We also found out that the man who sold them actually bought in Italian Queens

 

2008 we collected a small swarm - nursed them through another poor summer and got them through the winter.

 

2009 started quite well but then in April we had a very close family death followed very closely by another - many hours spent either hospital visiting or sorting out hospice care - two funerals within 6 weeks - and time spent with bereaved MIL who had lost a son and my father who had lost his wife.We took our eye off the ball and lost our bees when they swarmed, ironically, on the day we went to collect another swarm, hoping to increase our number of colonies

 

We were offered a nuc to purchase from the apiary - September I think - and they seemed to be doing well. We put fondant on over the winter, listened to make sure we could still hear them, didn't open the hive too early........until we opened up the hive on Saturday. Some bees were head first in cells - starvation.........even though there was plenty of food and some stores. I'd been watching the bees the previous few days when the weahter was so nice and knew there was something wrong, the bees were busy but not bringing pollen back in.

 

We have plenty of forage around and have planted quite a lot of bee friendly plants.

 

The next field did have fertiliser sprayed on it a week or so ago.........not our field.

 

We could ask to help one person from the local group who has been helpful and lives locally but time is always an issue - as well as the smallholding, we both have to work ........mostly from home now but Carl is doing long hours and could do with 8 days in a week again.

[Toots]

its a shame you live so far away i would love to give you a hand with all the ani,als on a weekend!

[chickenanne]

I'm no expert, by any means! But since when would that stop me having an opinion .

 

It seems like you used fondant more than syrup? Fondant is harder work for the bees as they need to go out for water to make it usable. In bitter cold weather they won't always be able to do this, also they get "worn out" with the search for water. I used fondant as a just-in-case top up in mid- Feb; some beeks go as far as to suggest using fondant should only be for emergencies. This could have been part of the issue.

Also, bees will starve if the stores are too far from the cluster - they won't move in search of fresh stores if there's nothing in the immediate vacinity of the cluser (isolation starvation) which is possibly why you found signs of starvation in a hive with plenty of stores in 2007- they wouldn't /couldn't get to the food, even though it was close by.

Nucs and small colonies are difficult to over-winter as there just aren't a lot of bees to make up a warm cluster. September nuc would be considered pretty late where I am (further north than you though!) so a succesful over-wintering wouldn't have been an easy way thing to acheive.

The dead-with- head-down-in-cells bees even though the weather was warm enough for you to inspect and there were stores present is not something I really understand - it would surely have been plenty warm enough for them to move about the hive to find the food. Am not sure why that would be.

As for losing a swarm in April - well, given your circumstances at the time I would put that down to "one of those things". What happened to the bees left behind after the swarm/ Did the queen cell hatch etc? Lots of people loose swarms, even "expert" beeks. It's unfortunate and beeks do need to do all thye can to avoid it, but mistakes happen.

 

Did you do any varroa treatments?

[beesontoast]

I'm no expert, by any means! But since when would that stop me having an opinion .

 

It seems like you used fondant more than syrup? Fondant is harder work for the bees as they need to go out for water to make it usable. In bitter cold weather they won't always be able to do this, also they get "worn out" with the search for water. I used fondant as a just-in-case top up in mid- Feb; some beeks go as far as to suggest using fondant should only be for emergencies. This could have been part of the issue.

 

Syrup should NOT be fed to bees in winter, as they cannot evaporate water from it and it is likely to ferment, giving them dysentery. It is also likely to stimulate the queen into early laying, thinking that nectar is coming in so it must be spring. This can lead to an excess of brood that the bees cannot feed, followed by starvation. Fondant is the only safe food to give to bees in winter, as it has a similar water content to honey and will not ferment, and will not be mistaken for nectar and therefore will not stimulate early laying.

 

The dead-with- head-down-in-cells bees even though the weather was warm enough for you to inspect and there were stores present is not something I really understand - it would surely have been plenty warm enough for them to move about the hive to find the food. Am not sure why that would be.

 

If the cluster was small, they may well have been unable to generate enough heat to move bodily towards stores if they were not very close. This is why brood combs with stores are the bees best asset for winter. If you put a full super over them, that will benefit a large colony, but a small one will struggle to generate enough heat to overcome the volume of cold air above them. Heavy insulation above colonies in winter is vital.

[chickenanne]

I wasn't suggesting syrup should be fed over the winter (hence I gave mine fondant in Feb, not syrup), but that it is a normal autumn feed. It would be unusual (in my area anyhow) to give fondant in autumn, and overwinter the bees on fondant - where I am it is usual for beeks to give syrup in autumn when there is still enough time for the bees to store it, evaporate excess water, and cap it over, for them to use over the winter months. Maybe I misunderstand Egluntines original post, but it sounded to me as if instead of an autumn feed of syrup, fondant was used.

 

Regarding the apparantly starved bees, I was surprised that when it is warm enough for bees to be out foraging, and for someone to inspect the hive, it would still be cold enough for bees to refuse to move about the hive in search of stores? I'm assuming that the heads-in-cells bees would've been relatively recently dead given that the hive was pretty active. Is cold night-time temperature enough for this isolation starvation to happen, even where daytime temps are over, say 10C?

[Lesley]

Thanks for the replies....

 

In my attempt to keep it short, I did miss bits out........

 

We use syrup in Autumn, changing to fondant for the winter. The dead bees could have been there since the winter as we didn't open the hive up until last Saturday. We made sure there was still fondant easily available by having a very quick inspection, the fondant was directly on top of the excluder, in a super with an empty paper feed bag (from chicken feed) over that as insulation.

 

We used Thymol in Autumn.

 

I can't remember what I wrote now, but we lost the swarm in June.

 

We attend nearly all of the apiary meetings so that we can learn from what is happening there - it is only a few miles away so conditions and weather are pretty similar. The Assoc. apiary is in woodland and ours isn't.

 

All three of the hives we have were new. We did have waxmoth last summer in the hive with just a few bees after the swarm and wasp attack but that was all cleared out and frames given to the hens to clear. Hive was cleaned and scorched and frames were put in the freezer. None of those are currently being used.

 

We can't think of anything else that might have made a difference. We'll see what comes our way this summer, Carl wants to continue.

 

In 2008 we entered every section that we were able to in the Honey Show, craft, cookery, honey......and won a place in all of them.

 

2009 we were away......2010 we won't even have any honey to make one cake!! - but it looks as if we will be there

[chickenanne]

Sorry! I clearly misunderstood re: fondant....

Don't give up. It seems like your OH is still keen so maybe he could persue it still. It must be so demoralising for you both though.