My eco solution to rat problems

[kateandsteve]

Our nuc turned up last month with five standard national frames & yet the Beehaus is deep national size.

Our bees - enterprising and marvellous as they are - have ignored the spare frames that we've added to the box and built comb underneath the standard frames to "fill the gap" so to speak.

Is this right, should Omlet have made sure the nuc was deep framed and is this a strain on the colony building comb from scratch and not on the wax foundations?

 

K + S

[Olly]

I think if you buy a nuc it's almost always likely to be on BS frames and not the deep ones, as I understand it Omlet order these in, they don't produce them, so I'm not sure how they could ensure they were on matching frames.

 

It shouldn't be a problem, yes they will build brace comb to fill a gap as you've found, and someone else on here suggested putting a shoebox underneath it to fill up the space. I don't think it's a strain on them, judging by how quickly they produce the darn stuff!

[Guest]

Is this not covered in the manual? A bad mistake if it is not.

 

Yes, a waste of effort for the bees as eventually they really need to be on the correct sized frames. There is a recent post on here covering the matter, so you appear not to be alone with the problem.

 

Basically, the standard format frames are much more popular and most nucs are on this size (reflected in the price and size of the colony, too). There are frame extenders which can be purchased (too late in your case?), but this is at extra cost, of course. One can easily prevent the wild comb by filling the space - a simple solution but not thought of by most new 'green' beeks.

 

Regards, RAB

[Guest]

Dear kateandsteve,

 

I am so pleased that your colony is thriving so well and may it long continue!

 

Most nucleus colonies are on frames which are the same width as the Beehaus frames but slightly shorter. They can be put straight into the Beehaus but you should aim to transfer the bees across onto the deeper frames as soon as possible.

 

It's straight forward to transfer the bees onto the larger frames, here's how:

 

1. Put all the nuc frames at the back of the hive, i.e against the divider board.

2. Put 2-3 new Beehaus frames in front of these (i.e) closer to the entrance.

3. The queen now has no option but to move onto the new frames to lay.

4. You need to encourage the bees to draw out the wax on the new frames. You can do this by feeding heavily with syrup so that they have the energy to spend all their time drawing out the frames for the queen to lay in. You may need to feed up to 8kg of syrup.

5. Add more frames as necessary working towards the entrance.

6. As the brood starts to hatch from the original short frames at the back of the hive simply remove them. This will be about 3 weeks after the eggs were last laid.

 

What happens if you don't remove the nuc brood frames the bees will build comb in the space underneath. This will probably be drone brood (larger cells with domed caps) and can be usually be removed as soon as it is capped as a means to controlling Varroa mites which prefer to lay their eggs in the larger cells. You should definately cut this out as if you leave it in you risk inadvertently increasing the Varroa population when the drones emerge. It's actually good practice to always leave one or two shorter frames for precisly this reason. If you do this make sure you leave it at the edge of the brood, if you put it at the back the bees will use it for storing honey.

 

I hope the above helps and if you have any questions, please let me know.

[Guest]

Very sorry to disagree again but your resident expert from omlette is misguided IMO.

 

Point 4. Do not feed more than is necessary. The nuc should have come with adequate stores for the bees. The colony should be a balanced groups of bees in the correct ratio of foragers:house bees:capped brood:open brood:eggs. The foragers should, if there is a decent nectar flow, be able to more than service the requierements of the colony. What the queen needs is space to lay, to produce more house bees, which will allow her to lay more brood in the next cycle. What is not required is for most of the drawn comb to be filled with sugar honey instead of brood. Feeding is required later in the year to fill the combs with winter stores, not now (unless necessary) as the space is needed for brood. I usually feed initially to settle them in and then observe how the stores levels are. Two frames of stores is already there, what with the honey arch etc. If the nuc is not a 'mini' colony where all the brood and most of the bees are offspring of the residenrt queen, the price should reflect that and is a poorer alternative.

 

Now to point 3. The bees will draw wild comb under the existing frames. They will do it in preference to drawing new foundation. BTDT. Remove that space and they will certainly have to draw the new frames. Very simple.

 

Further there is no mention of using the dummy in front of the frames. I use a short divider and ensure a tight fit at t he cover board as that retains warmth in the nucleus far better than a dummy board. Warmth is required to speed comb drawing.

 

Furthermore, a nucleus sized colony is unlikely to draw drone comb - none are needed in a nucleus as this is at an inappropriate stage of colony building. They will draw, and she will lay up, worker comb until the time comes that the colony is nearing the stage where reproduction (swarming) may occur. Observe, and I am sure you will see that I am a lot closer to the mark. One cannot ever be sure about bee behaviour, but just think about it from the bees' point of view - drones are an unecessary drain on the economy when build up of foragers is the name of the game.

 

As much as whoever-it-is is trying to woo the punters, the best and sound advice should be given, not supposed facts which are just not true.

 

You can take my advice or leave it; that is entirely up to you. I might suggest you get a second opinion other than mine on the information so far given. I do run Nationals (jumbos), Dartingtons and a beehaus, and have kept bees for some years. I do not market hives.

 

Regards, RAB

 

PS point 6 made me chuckle, too!

[Christian]

The comment 'ask 6 beeks a question and get 6 different answers' springs to mind

 

Everyone has their own way and I kindly request that you curb your comments about 'whoever-it-is is trying to woo the punters' RAB. You clearly have your opinions on how things are done and your experience is very valid and valuable, but please re read your posts before you submit as they can be seen as offensive.

 

'

The resident expert works at OMLET btw

[Guest]

Dear Christian,

 

You might note that the OP reported that the colony was already building wild comb. I am confident hey will find that it is worker comb into which the queen will likely be laying by the time the other brood has emerged - provided, of course, that all the laying space has not been filled with sugar honey! Point 6 is truly a further great waste of resources for the bees. After the bees have all emerged might make a little more sense rather than 'as they start to emerge'!, But, I suspect there will be brood under by then.

 

You will note that I avoided commenting directly on the frame-size of the nucleus supplied, one issue that was not addressed by anyone.

 

Perhaps you should scroll down a few posts to the one re 'entrance'. You will note that after I replied giving the poster 2 things to check out there are posts like:

 

Everyone who is able to answer is probably tending their bees and im sure they will bee along soon.

 

Indicating none has been able to answer the conundrum Not too subtle, and

 

I am sorry that up until now you have not received any constructive assistance with your conundrum...

 

where the poster simply eloquently restated one of my points. I would include the divider as a possibility of being erroneously deployed, thus keeping the entrance/exit closed.

 

Neither of those two comments were particularly subtle, were they? I eagerly look forward to your response while not anticipating an entirely adequate explanation.

 

Best regards, RAB

[v8landy]

'

The resident expert works at OMLET btw

 

RAB is just speaking the truth, words read and no facial coments can be taken many ways.

 

Over feeding is just as negative as not feeding, its all a very fine balancing act.

 

I have to question though the linking of the "resident expert" to Omlet, when it clearly states in the forum rules no selling or advetising?

 

And I have been told many times this includes Omlet products/sevices!

 

The issue of supplying nucs in std format V the beehaus 14x12 if feel has not been fully adressed, and I hope it is for 2011.

[Guest]

Very sorry to disagree again but your resident expert from omlet is misguided IMO.

 

Gosh - I am sorry that you don't agree RAB - I did infact get that information from an expert who has kept bees for more than 30 years so I really could not comment... I found the information he gave me to sound quite reasonable and as beekeeping practices differ so hugely from beekeeper to beekeeper who was I to argue...

 

I might be worth the OP contacting their local assocation for a 2nd opinion or tackling the situation as they see fit...

 

#everyonedoesthingsdifferentlydontshootthemessenger

[Christian]

I am not getting dragged into a debate about the resident expert. He works for Omlet.

 

I know nothing about bees and don't get that involved in this section of the forum, but I do read it. My point is, sarcastic, condescending posts are not tolerated on this forum.

 

With regard to the posts mentioned RAB, if no one can answer then they don't. Simple as that. I don't reply to posts I have no idea about. Nothing to do with subtlety.

 

If you cannot post in a pleasant way, then don't post at all.

[Guest]

words read and no facial coments can be taken many ways.

 

Please can we try to let this not get out of hand please - v8landy is right - words read and no facial comments can be taken many ways. RAB I fear you are reffering to my comments on the 'entrance' topic i apologise if you found my wording caused you un-neccessary distress it was not meant to...

 

Can we remember why we are here - I really do not want this topic to deviate away from the the main question at hand... If anyone can offer more information or advise to the OP then great - as I said before every beekeeper has his own way of dealing with his hive others may not agree with his methods and that is just the way it is...

 

Thank you.

[Guest]

I may be direct and to the point but I do try to actually read the posts and address the problem. I know I sometimes get it wrong but that is life. The proof of the pudding... as they say. The colony will be raising worker brood in the wild comb, whatever the beek with 30 years experience says. Removing frames as soon as the brood starts to emerge is a total waste of effort from the bees. In three weeks time the OP will realise where the real advice came from. Let's wait and see.

 

Regards, RAB

[Guest]

I may be direct and to the point but I do try to actually read the posts and address the problem. I know I sometimes get it wrong but that is life. The proof of the pudding... as they say. The colony will be raising worker brood in the wild comb, whatever the beek with 30 years experience says. Removing frames as soon as the brood starts to emerge is a total waste of effort from the bees. In three weeks time the OP will realise where the real advice came from. Let's wait and see.

 

Regards, RAB

 

Thanks RAB - I will pass on your thoughts to Johannes regarding the information that I have been given by our expert and I will gracefully accept defeat should your advice to the OP come true

[Kermit]

Isn't the obvious problem here that Omlet are providing bees on the wrong sized frames. If they know that bees are going into a Dartington then they will need to be on 14x12 frames and so they should order nucs that are that size. The other option is to provide the commercial kits that can be used to convert the size of frames. However, both these options cost money...

[Melbourne12]

We use a mixture of standard national brood and 14x12 boxes. I've not tried to put a standard brood nuc into a 14x12 box, but the extenders aren't too expensive. Thornes sell the extension woodwork (a Burnett extension) for around £10 for 10 frames, plus another £5 for the wax.

 

It looks as though with care, and working with two people, it would be possible to clip the extenders onto an occupied frame if you shook most of the bees off first. That way you could avoid the problem of the gap under the frames from the start.

[Guest]

kateandsteve,

 

Should be long enough to tell by now.

 

Pleas tell everyone that small nucleus colonies do not waste energy with rearing drones. The comb, or some of it, must now be brood.

 

It could conceivably happen, but none of my full colonies are stupid enough to brood drones before the nest is near completion (prior to the swarming season). It is said that weak colonies of less than 6000(ish) bees will likely never raise drones at any time in the season.

 

So tell us all: what is in this wild comb? Equivalent to another three combs of un-needed drone brood, or has it been usefully employed for raising workers, to reinforce the colony?

 

Regards, RAB

[kateandsteve]

Phew! Is it safe to come back now???

 

TBH I didn't spot any drone cells but I have a more pressing problem with the Beehaus now - the bees are now building comb on the inside front wall of the Beehaus! It's a real mess in there, but I can't see what's going on in there. I suspect the queen is laying in there, so I quelled my first instinct to cut the new comb out.

 

This beekeeping is a nightmare, I have info from Omlet, a beekeeping book from the library, a flyer that came with the nuc and this forum and all with different advice and opinions!

Best to go it alone, I think

Edited July 6, 2010 by Guest

[Olly]

Unfortunately, whatever advice you read you can guarantee that your bees won't have read the same booklet!

 

That's why I'd strongly recommend joining your local bee keeping group - having someone who can come and look at your hive in person is a huge advantage. Even bee keepers with years of experience don't always know the answers, but they can make some educated guesses.

[chickenanne]

You sound very despairing! Understandable as it seems like you're battling problems caused by frame sizes before you've really got going. Anyhow, I agree re: joining your local association as soon as you can. Having someone look at it will help you. Even if they are not familiar with the beehaus (and they are unlikely to be) they should still be able to advise a course of action. There! A bit of advice that at least two people agree with .

 

It's difficult to say without seeing it, (and please bear in mind that I've never even seen a beehaus and have kept bees for one year only) but if there is proper comb attached to the inside wall of the beehaus I would suggest that your best/only course of action is to make sure you have the right number of frames at the correct spacing, and s"Ooops, word censored!"e away this comb on the beehaus walls, as it will be impossible to inspect. Wasteful for the bees efforts as it is, I think it may be a necessary evil. I can see how the bees would build comb in the gap under the frames, but I think the comb on the walls of the beehaus should only be happening if the frames are incorrectly spaced in the brood box (they shouldn't ahve any interest in building wild comb where the correct bee-space is used).

 

However, I would definitely recommend trying to get someone experienced to have a look at it in person, and to check that the frames are then correctly spaced with you. Someone going through it face-to-face will really help I'm sure.

[Kermit]

Make that three of us agreeing - join your local assoc NOW.

 

Remember that what may look neat and ordered to us, is not necessarily how the bees see it. The frames should be close up to one end of the hive and then a dummy board at the other end. The frames shouldn't be neatly in the centre of the hive. This could be why they are building wild comb.

[BuzzWorker]

Bees do build the nest close to the hive entrance - sp if there is space for a comb between the first frame and the end wall they will sometimes build in it. The problem is that it is easier to work a long-deep box if you leave the first frame back a little, to leave space to get the first frame out. So best to put a dummy frame in front of the first frame to fill the gap. You can get that out fairly easily and then have space to loosen the first active frame. I once left a gap in front of the dummy, and the bees built a number of short combs made a number of wild combs spanning the gap - so do keep the dummy fairly close to the end wall.

 

BuzzWorker

[Guest]

Only recently colonised the beehaus, but with the Dartingtons I regularly run the colony in the middle section of the hive.

 

Always for over-wintering. Keeps them very cosy. Spring expansion is merely adding frames to the front of the nest initially and later to both sides of the nest. Absolutely no reason to disturb the nest at these times - just move the divider/dummy along and add the extra frames. Works well and never been any problems with wild comb, so unless I make a mistake or don't give them enough room for expansion I don't anticipate any need for them to make alternative comb building arrangements.

 

The space in front is often a good indicator of swarm imminence as the bees tend to congregate in that area prior to them leaving. The Dartington is a very good system in some ways and I see only a very few downsides in operating the beehaus in exactly the same way ( it is after all, only a plastic version of the same).

 

Regards, RAB