2009 Omlet cube and run for sale

[Nicho]

My security light just went off and to my surprise it was our local Fox doing his rounds.

 

We knew he has been around but this was my first chance to get him, but by the time I had got my airgun he had disappeared into the night.

 

He didn't even take a look at the chickens or rabbits tonight so maybe he has got the message that they are protected.

 

Maybe next time he'll get a pellet up his jacksie. The cat very nearly did this time though. Grrr my heart is pumping and I know that I'll not sleep tonight now worrying about the girls.

[Roobaloo]

Why shoot it if you're animals are suitably protected and it showed no interest in them?

 

Are you good enough a shot to kill it outright with an airgun? Or are you going to leave an animal to suffer a potentially long, painful, drawn out death just because you dislike it?

[markm]

The fox should be shot as it will wait for its time when it knows there is a meal ready. Keep in mind this is how a fox feeds and will normally follow a set route every night, therefore will stress the birds.

 

However - an airgun is totally unsuitable to dispatch a fox and should never be used on such an animal.

 

2 options -

 

1 .22 rimfire with a moderator which is silent or a .410 shotgun with a moderator (close range), either shot in the garden or snared on its route (snares need to be checked twice every 24 hours)

2. A live catch trap and then dispatched as it is illegal to relocated wild life in this country. A town fox will not know how to feed itself in the countryside and could be attacked by a wild fox.

[migsy]

I hope you don't shoot cats with air rifles either.

[Roobaloo]

The fox should be shot as it will wait for its time when it knows there is a meal ready. Keep in mind this is how a fox feeds and will normally follow a set route every night, therefore will stress the birds.

 

Yes, and understanding this...and the fact the fox does visit the garden, surely the obvious solution is to ensure the coop remains secure?

 

Otherwise, how is this any different from the Badger cull to prevent the spread of bovine cattle? Why should one species have to die just because of human convinience?

 

Surely, as a responsible pet owner, it is your duty to provide suitable housing to provide the correct level of protection? Not kill every other creature in sight!! What if the neighbours cat starts harassing the birds? Will you shoot that too?

 

You choose to keep a prey animal in a predators territory. What rights do you have to end its life because of it?

 

My Father is a Game keeper...his rule is "fence against...". If your defence is weak, expect to be invaded. If the fox can enter your garden, change your fencing so it can't. Then your hens will be safe and the fox can go elsewhere for his meal.

[Jools]

I agree 100% with Roobaloo's post (but then I am a gamekeeper's grand-daughter).

[Doody]

Hi,

 

Like other members have stated, if your coop/pen/run is safe and well protected against wildlife no guns should need to be fired.

 

Personally i could never kill or shoot anything, although a few bosses ive known in the past i could of easily strangled lol...

[markm]

The fox should be shot as it will wait for its time when it knows there is a meal ready. Keep in mind this is how a fox feeds and will normally follow a set route every night, therefore will stress the birds.

 

Yes, and understanding this...and the fact the fox does visit the garden, surely the obvious solution is to ensure the coop remains secure?

 

Otherwise, how is this any different from the Badger cull to prevent the spread of bovine cattle? Why should one species have to die just because of human convinience?

 

Surely, as a responsible pet owner, it is your duty to provide suitable housing to provide the correct level of protection? Not kill every other creature in sight!! What if the neighbours cat starts harassing the birds? Will you shoot that too?

 

You choose to keep a prey animal in a predators territory. What rights do you have to end its life because of it?

 

My Father is a Game keeper...his rule is "fence against...". If your defence is weak, expect to be invaded. If the fox can enter your garden, change your fencing so it can't. Then your hens will be safe and the fox can go elsewhere for his meal.

 

 

Badger - the countryside as we know it is not the wilderness but land managed by man. At one time badgers were not at the top of the food chain, they also did not have an abundance of food readily available therefore nature managed them in 2 ways, hunted and starved. Do you know how much it costs the tax payer in this country for compensation for cattle with TB? Would you poison rats?

 

Fox - This is a wild animal that is an opportunist, they have moved into town and it not their territory. End its life? Yes, they spread disease, kill and damage goods and property. Did you see the news a month ago about the 2 young girls?

 

Game Keeper - I am also a game keeper (part time) after work (school teacher) and rear 900 pheasants and ducks. Yes Game keepers pen / fence birds when first released but they also but (and a bet my last dollar all do) snare, l"Ooops, word censored!"n trap, ladder trap and shoot corvids, shoot vermin, poison vermin, fenn trap rats, stoats and weasels. Not sure about what else you meant by fence against... Birds flying????

 

This not only protects game birds but other species many of which are endangered. Wild birds flourish on the land I manage because of this.

[C&T]

I'm with Roobaloo.

 

We are talking here about a back garden with a few chickens - nothing like a commercial setup, where I agree different strategies are required (although I am not sure that I agree with all the above methods - but that is a very different debate).

 

I've had a fox in the garden - and as such I ensure that my chooks are protected from them. That to me is the sensible approach. I cannot shoot everything that may pose a threat, just protect against.

 

I think bringing up the twin girls is emotive - that kind of attack is extremely rare. More dogs maul humans (as well as a few chooks!) - no-one is suggesting that they are all shot.

[Roobaloo]

I have replied within the quote.

 

Badger - the countryside as we know it is not the wilderness but land managed by man. At one time badgers were not at the top of the food chain, they also did not have an abundance of food readily available therefore nature managed them in 2 ways, hunted and starved. Do you know how much it costs the tax payer in this country for compensation for cattle with TB? Would you poison rats?

 

Again, "land managed by man"..this is my point. We as a species have decided that we own this world, that it is our property and therefore shall kill any undesirable that passes onto it...to hell with whatever creature lives here. If cattle are at risk of infection, why should one species be slaughtered, especially when cattle are just for food. We have other sources of food available. It is unnecessary death.

No, I wouldn't poison rats. I think it is utterly barbaric. We control rats using good hygiene and the restriction of nest sites. The local population will not increase if it cannot be sustained...that is nature.

 

Fox - This is a wild animal that is an opportunist, they have moved into town and it not their territory. End its life? Yes, they spread disease, kill and damage goods and property. Did you see the news a month ago about the 2 young girls?

 

It is an opportunist by nature that has had to adapt due to our development of their land. Again, this is the human mentality that we own everything. We destroy habitats and seem amazed when nature fights back!! Humans spread disease, kill and damage goods and property...do we kill them? No. We allow them to breed out of control...we cure them...we defy nature. Don't get me wrong, I'm only here because of modern medicine, I do eat meat...but I believe that if we are willing to kill other species so indiscriminately, then we should judge ourselves by the same standard!!

Yes, I heard about the girls. Those who believe it to be a true wild fox are those, like you, who are against Foxes and see them only as a ruthless murderer who should be wiped off the face of the Earth. Those who are against the Hunting Ban. Others believe it was either a hand-raised fox that had been released or a 'tamed' fox that had been fed s"Ooops, word censored!"s and accepted human presence. Again, human interference.

For the record...I used to Fox hunt. From my own experience I have decided that it is not an effective method of control. However, I would sooner a Fox got killed by a pack of dogs than starve to death with an infected wound because a "backyard" chicken keeper decided they were Judge, Jury and Executioner.

 

If you are helping manage the land, are an experienced gunman...then I have no problem with fox control. Jo Public, in their back garden, killing a fox for merely being alive, I have a real issues with.

 

Game Keeper - I am also a game keeper (part time) after work (school teacher) and rear 900 pheasants and ducks. Yes Game keepers pen / fence birds when first released but they also but (and a bet my last dollar all do) snare, l"Ooops, word censored!"n trap, ladder trap and shoot corvids, shoot vermin, poison vermin, fenn trap rats, stoats and weasels. Not sure about what else you meant by fence against... Birds flying????

 

You fence against to protect your stock. If a bird flies out of it's protection, then what right do you have to kill an animal for preying on it. If you want the birds to stay in, then put a roof on the pen, don't start killing other animals. My Father takes great pride in the fact he does not use poison. His dogs run loose in the area, as do many of the locals...using poison would put them at risk via secondary poisoning. He shoots old and injured foxes who clearly cannot hunt for themselves and are looking for their last easy meals. He is firmly against snares...he taught me how to live with the countryside, rather than just abusing it.

 

This not only protects game birds but other species many of which are endangered. Wild birds flourish on the land I manage because of this.

 

I find this statement ironic. You are proud to protect "endangered" species (endangerment called by human interference, reduction of natural habitat caused by development and farming) yet are willing to endanger other species for the sake of it!!

[markm]

Just some feedback to your at times sesible comments.

 

If cattle are at risk of infection, why should one species be slaughtered, especially when cattle are just for food. We have other sources of food available. It is unnecessary death.

 

Why not? Ask the farmer who rears the cattle how he/she feels and are happy with badgers. Its OK for the cattle to die from TB as long as Billy is doin just fine? Other foods? What like? Vegetarian diet? Ever heard of pesticides? Do you use red might powder and wromers? Surely they kill animals.

 

Humans spread disease, kill and damage goods and property.

 

Spead disease, many by nature, not all damage goods property and kill. Do you know and vegan foxes? You say you have hunted in the past so you will be well aware nature is not disney.

 

 

"backyard" chicken keeper decided they were Judge, Jury and Executioner.

 

If you happen to read back over the past comments, I was telling the person an airgun is not the right tool for the job. But with the right tool and the right person then why should he not protect his / her stock? Its perfectly legal and morally right to him/her and me.

 

 

You fence against to protect your stock. If a bird flies out of it's protection, then what right do you have to kill an animal for preying on it. If you want the birds to stay in, then put a roof on the pen.

 

We bought, care for, rear & feed so why not. I am producing food and wether you like it or not giving myself and friends sport. ie - shooting game birds which everyone in the syndicate eats. Its natural for a bird to fly, they want to adventure. Do you support caged hunting / shooting so keep them locked up? Do I not have more right to kill the animal that is hunting the pheasant that it does? Has the fox been caring for the pheasants, filling up drinkers, feeders, gritter when I'm not there?

 

You are proud to protect "endangered" species yet are willing to endanger other species for the sake of it!!

 

Very much so, very very proud. Lapwings, curlews, grey partridge & hare all flouish on the land I manage because I manage it, as well as other species - blackbirds, thrush, other small birds ie - kill vermin - rats, fox and others already mentioned (again I am proud that I do this). The rest - mallard, rabbit, roe deer, pheasant, wood pigeon etc etc myself and fellow shoot members take a harvest from the land. If fox or any other become endagered then I would review what I do.

[Bexibex]

I'm with Roobaloo.

[Olly]

Can I please remind all those posting on this topic to keep your replies courteous and respectful - personal attacks and ad hominem comments do not assist the debate and will be moderated.

 

Although this topic has now moved onto 'gamekeeping' please remember that most of those posting on this forum are back garden chicken-keepers.

[Nicho]

Wow what a response. I have just checked the computer and was amazed at the comments.

 

For the record, it is not my intention to kill the fox with the airgun, nor to leave it wounded.

 

My understanding is that foxes are territorial creatures and if you remove one fox, then it is very quickly replaced by another.

 

My plan therefore was to give the fox a sting so that it will assosiate our garden with being a bad place to play and it will therefore learn not to enter. The pellets will not be powerfully enough at the distance which I would be shooting from to penetrate the skin, that I am sure.

 

My approach will be no diferent from using electric fencing which would similarly train it to stay away.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Guest

[Roobaloo]

Just some feedback to your at times sesible comments.

 

If cattle are at risk of infection, why should one species be slaughtered, especially when cattle are just for food. We have other sources of food available. It is unnecessary death.

 

Why not? Ask the farmer who rears the cattle how he/she feels and are happy with badgers. Its OK for the cattle to die from TB as long as Billy is doin just fine? Other foods? What like? Vegetarian diet? Ever heard of pesticides? Do you use red might powder and wromers? Surely they kill animals.

 

I can't have been clear enough with my initial point. Control is acceptable when there is no other option. A cull is not. A cull is the removal of a species within a designated area. It is unbiased, it doesn't take healthy animals into account. So why, just for the sake of a lump of beef, should be sign a death warrant on the badger? If British cattle are at risk and their is no vaccination or cure. Then perhaps we need to look at another form of meat...hence "other food". Why should we destroy thousands of lives for meat...death for death?

 

Parasites, yes, I kill them...from one host. Again, this is control. I have no issue with control. The issues raised was that a fox was being sentenced to death for passing through a garden. The fox had done nothing, the hens were secure...why does the fox need to be shot? The hens are safe, the fox is only a threat if the owner makes a mistake...and if the owner does, then why should the fox suffer?

 

Humans spread disease, kill and damage goods and property.

 

Spead disease, many by nature, not all damage goods property and kill. Do you know and vegan foxes? You say you have hunted in the past so you will be well aware nature is not disney.

 

No, nature isn't Disney...but nature is balanced. We are not, we affect that balance for our own needs.

 

 

"backyard" chicken keeper decided they were Judge, Jury and Executioner.

 

If you happen to read back over the past comments, I was telling the person an airgun is not the right tool for the job. But with the right tool and the right person then why should he not protect his / her stock? Its perfectly legal and morally right to him/her and me.

 

I am well aware of your post. You recommend a .410 shotgun...are you seriously recommending that a casual poultry keeper should own such a weapon when something as simple as wire can stop a fox getting to a hen? Are there not enough guns in the hands of the general public?

Besides, as a Game keeper, surely you are also aware that it requires good aim in order to cleanly kill a fox. Just because the weapon is more suitable, it doesn't mean the shot will be any more humane.

 

You fence against to protect your stock. If a bird flies out of it's protection, then what right do you have to kill an animal for preying on it. If you want the birds to stay in, then put a roof on the pen.

 

We bought, care for, rear & feed so why not. I am producing food and wether you like it or not giving myself and friends sport. ie - shooting game birds which everyone in the syndicate eats. Its natural for a bird to fly, they want to adventure. Do you support caged hunting / shooting so keep them locked up? Do I not have more right to kill the animal that is hunting the pheasant that it does? Has the fox been caring for the pheasants, filling up drinkers, feeders, gritter when I'm not there?

 

Shooting for food is fine, just like raising chickens for meat. This is not the arguement.

If you wish to raise birds for your own gut, then it is your duty to protect them...but why should this be at the expense of another animal who is merely trying to find a meal when there are alternatives, such as correct stock fencing? If you want your birds to roam wild in order to provide you with sport...then surely this is the risk you take? Why should every fox be shot becuase it happens to be in the area? Besides, if you're talking about sport, then surely it's more sporting if the birds are truly wild and know what a predator is...including man?

 

You are proud to protect "endangered" species yet are willing to endanger other species for the sake of it!!

 

Very much so, very very proud. Lapwings, curlews, grey partridge & hare all flouish on the land I manage because I manage it, as well as other species - blackbirds, thrush, other small birds ie - kill vermin - rats, fox and others already mentioned (again I am proud that I do this). The rest - mallard, rabbit, roe deer, pheasant, wood pigeon etc etc myself and fellow shoot members take a harvest from the land. If fox or any other become endagered then I would review what I do.

 

So instead of finding balance with nature, you insist on fluctuation? That's not good management. What happens why the predator population descreases to the point that prey species are over populated...more animals suffer either by nature (starvation) or by hunting, if they're lucky. After all, myxomatosis was intentionally introduced to control the rabbit population. Does that sound humane? Why is it acceptable to eradicate one species for the sake of our own needs?

 

The bottom line is that shooting a fox just because it's there is wrong. Backyard chicken owners should not be keeping shotguns...especially when good fencing is all it takes. If the birds are safe and secure, the fox is no risk whatsoever.

 

I would rather one child got bitten by a fox once in a blue moon than every chicken owner having a .410 in the house.

 

But that's just my opinion.

[Roobaloo]

My plan therefore was to give the fox a sting so that it will assosiate our garden with being a bad place to play and it will therefore learn not to enter. The pellets will not be powerfully enough at the distance which I would be shooting from to penetrate the skin, that I am sure.

 

My approach will be no diferent from using electric fencing which would similarly train it to stay away.

 

Is it worth the risk of causing unnecessary suffering to find out?

 

Electric fencing is a barrier that discourages an animal from crossing by causing temporary discomfort. Punishing an animal when he has already entered the property will not keep him away.

 

For example, if you catch your dog sitting on the sofa and reprimand him...he knows not to sit on the sofa when you're there. However, he doesn't get told off when you're not there...so it's not sitting on the sofa that is bad. It's you being there. The fox will treat it the same. He will not associate the pain felt with the garden...just any presence that caused it.

 

Could you not just stop him entering?

[Chucky Mama]

I won't get into a wide drawn out debate but will say that an air rifle will not kill a fox. Unfortunately people commonly shoot at cats, it rarely fatal. No doubt extremely painful at the time but the pellets then tend to sit in the body and cause little or no harm at all; often going unnoticed unless x-rayed for some other reason. So, trying to shoot a fox with an air rifle one is pointless and at least will cause unnecessary suffering. Foxes generally breed according to the available food source and are territorial. If you kill this fox, another will move into that vacant territory. Whilst you may be incredibly frustrated re having a fox on the prowl and fearful for your chickens, keeping your set up secure will always have to be a priority. If it is not this fox on the prowl, it will be another one.

[Heidi-Hi]

I would rather one child got bitten by a fox once in a blue moon than every chicken owner having a .410 in the house

 

Until it's your child! I don't necessarily agree with everyone owning a gun/rifle, but that is just wrong! Hope the parents who's children got bitten don't belong to this forum to read that

[Roobaloo]

I would rather one child got bitten by a fox once in a blue moon than every chicken owner having a .410 in the house

 

Until it's your child! I don't necessarily agree with everyone owning a gun/rifle, but that is just wrong! Hope the parents who's children got bitten don't belong to this forum to read that

 

My point was that how many children have been bitten by a fox in their own home? As far as I can see, this was a one off...it was a comparative statement that a one off non-fatal incident one be better than potentially hundreds of thousands of people buying shotguns, especially in light of the recent shootings in the UK.

[Egluntyne]

Please folks, can we keep it friendly .... and on topic.

 

Cheers!

[Heidi-Hi]

Yes, I agree! People are taking things way out of context and saying things that should not be said, whether they mean it or not Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but this is Omlet, not a corner in Hyde Park. I think if people feel so strongly about an issue, they should PM each other, otherwise members who would normally converse peacefully could perhaps upset each other unrepairably... but that is just my humble opinion. Sorry if I have upset anyone.

[migsy]

Yes, I agree! People are taking things way out of context and saying things that should not be said, whether they mean it or not Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but this is Omlet, not a corner in Hyde Park. I think if people feel so strongly about an issue, they should PM each other, otherwise members who would normally converse peacefully could perhaps upset each other unrepairably... but that is just my humble opinion. Sorry if I have upset anyone.

 

I agree!