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[sandyhas3chucks]

There is a fair bit of information out there about cocci, which is a little misleading I feel.

I am about to copy a post i put elsewhere in the hope it helps someone and to raise general awareness.

My girls is a one year released ex bat... so not young chick

There was no blood...

I have just had a similar experience though no deaths thankfully

To begin with just "somebody" doing very liquid often milky and bubbly poo.

No one appeared ill all that lay were laying (all exbats)

Soon as I saw who did it I sent of the sample to be tested.

It came back positive for Coccidiosis.

2 days after she started to appear ill and was put on Baytril.

Now Coxoid is not licenced for poultry but is what people use, but the makers told me to wait two days after the antibiotic before treating.

But I knew by then I would lose her.

With agreement with my vet she was not PT. I decided to treat it very (aggresively) she had lost a lot of weigh(one third)t by then was not eating or importantly drinking (the Coxoid is mixed with water)

I mixed the coxoid as per instruction (treating the whole flock) I then used the mix with Critical Care Solution at its maximum concentration(as per instruction) and syringed 1ml every hour. (Whilst not huge amounr of fluid I was concened that as the parasites were dying they might release toxins making her feel worse . (I would like to know if this was correct or not)

Oh her comb and wattles had got paler and paler. I found a great article written by a vet descibing this chicken to a T!!

Any how the next day I felt her colour might be better her eyes certainly had a brighter look.

I managed 2.5 mls every hour sometimes 5 ml, sometimes not disturbing her if she was looking happy .

Well by day 3 WOW...

she was eating on her own.

She has come on fabulously .

I was in daily contact with my Vet

[sandyhas3chucks]

CHICKEN VET replied this BUT my girl was NOT a new release!!!!

Had I not sent sample to Retfords she would be dead, she was very close and had missed PTS twice!!!

No amount of Batril, or antibiotic wuld have saved her..

Just the correct drug from a clear precise diagnosis!

 

Coccidiosis can be quite common in ex bats and we have just written an article on the subject for the next British Hen Welfare Trust newsletter. The problem occurs when ex bats are introduced into a new environment where cocci is present, these birds have been previously kept in an environment where they have not been in contact with their own faeces and they have not built up any immunity to the disease.

 

Our vets here are very happy to test your hen's droppings you can purchase a test kit from our website. The cost of the test £12.50 + vat, this covers a cocci test and a worm egg count, so you will also know if there are any worms present.

 

The important thing following treatment is to also administer some Beryl's as this will really help with reestablishing the hen's gut flora. There are other treatments available such as Baycox and Coxoid but do remember that non of these are licensed for use in laying hens and they should only be used under the advice of a vet. For more information on Coxoid read here.

[sandyhas3chucks]

None of the others appeared affected but of course all were treated as they were drinking it was in their water and mixed with wet food.

Daisy has gone from 1.4 and deaths door to almost back to her normal fatter self at 1.90 (1.97 was max)

Her colour which was virtually white, and only after did I realise her feathers had gone paler & dull, are back to her normal rosy colour.

[Plum]

Great story Sandy and glad she had a good outcome, you work so hard for your girls.

 

My chicken I lost to Cocci never showed blood in her stool it was more a green starvation stool. A sample was sent which came back as coccidiosis but didn't identify which type, just too many to count. I think the delay in treating contributed to the outcome. The vet suspected Cocci but didn't start treatment until confirmed, she could still be here. I did keep syringing her and trying different ways of getting nutrition and fluids into her but I don't think I tried hard enough.

They are also vulnerable to secondary infections.

[sandyhas3chucks]

oh plum, it is horrid to feel like that....

I had coxoid here, but found it was out of date, used it anyway while finding new one, but treatment delayed too with antibiotics given

I was very lucky..

I had successfully intensively syringed another poorly as often,another problem though now wonder if her ultimate 6 weeks later death, caused by a stricture stricture might have been caused by parasitic damage?

I was also wondering if other un accounted for deaths might be cocci?

I was also thinking only this morning, how many times "E" posts

have you wormed them

that perhaps a week of coxoid (as pigeon fanciers do) might be a appropriate if there are any strange watery poos or sad looking birds.

??????????

really sorry you lost your girl Plum.

[Jools]

I'd agree with you Sandy, but (isn't there always one!!) unless coccidiosis is confirmed (or very obvious), I wouldn't want to use coxoid as it's very harsh on the gut. However, Herban (or similar) used at 2ml/l is very effective and recommended by Retfords too.

[sandyhas3chucks]

Jools I KNOW you will want to boot me...

I have used oregostim since on of my very first girls was ill and you or someone else recommended it.

BUT had lapsed when starting to run low, and they had had 2 lots of denegard in their water then probiotics.

Then it got soo hot I put big bowls of plain water all about the garden...

Was thinking they would like fresh water for a bit, used Citricdal in the D cups

Needless to say I won't be lapsing ever again!!!!!

Why is it harsh on their gut?

Is it the coxoid or the parasite damage?

Was going to say is it any worse on the gut than Fluuby but best you don't reply to that tohught X

[Plum]

It lowers their vit K levels I think and you have to make it up, so I gave rest Lifeguard but there are other supplements with it in.

 

I regularly give my girls herban or oregostim now and recently one was a bit loose but well so gave a month of it but it's hard to know if it works or not unless you are going to leave some with nothing and compare. Still I'm a sucker for recommendations and now they are on Citricidal after one sneezed, then I google and someone else says its useless

[sandyhas3chucks]

well it blocks B1 in the parasite, one might think it would effect B1 in the host... I wonder why K ? a lack of causes blood to not clot?

hmm wonder if someone will be able to help out here?

Maybe Chucky Mama is looking it up.

[Plum]

Here's one of the references to vit K though I have seen it recommended that vit A and K are given.

 

Studies have shown an interrelationship between the severity of coccidiosis and vitamin K requirement and indicated that as much as 8 mg of vitamin K per kg (3.6 mg per lb) of diet was needed at times for maximum growth and feed efficiency. Scott et al. (1982) concluded that coccidiosis possibly produces a triple stress on the vitamin K requirement by (1) reducing feed intake and thereby the supply of vitamin K, (2) injuring the intestinal tract and reducing absorption of the vitamin and (3) treatment with sulfaquinoxaline or other anticoccidials that cause an increased requirement for vitamin K. Recovery of poultry from coccidiosis has been enhanced by high dietary levels of supplemental vitamin K.

 

I found this site quite informative and the information appears to be valid

http://www.thepoultrysite.com/diseaseinfo/

[pearcie]

so can eggs still be used when treating with coxoid ?

[Egluntyne]

No .... as the product isn't licensed for use on Poultry.

[Plum]

Not sure about withdrawal period for Coxoid. I did searches before and as Egluntyne says it's not licensed so hasn't been tested for chickens and therefore, their excretion rates. Mine were treated with Baycox also not licensed for 'laying' chickens and was advised 3 weeks at that time.

[sandyhas3chucks]

No .... as the product isn't licensed for use on Poultry.

and they had to tell me I couldn't use it....(law I guess..) but they did tell me not at same time as antibiotic and to wait 2 weeks before I treated my pigeon, so assume same for a chook really, but as we know my girl would have been dead if I had waited, if not directly from the parasite then certainly from the anorexia...(som einfo says they will recover unaided ????????????????

[Plum]

But other literature says they gain an immunity and either recover or die but some have such a damaged gut that they don't absorb food properly again

[sandyhas3chucks]

that is precisely the misleading info I was on about..

Why has it got to be so hard ?

Cos, then others say it can wipe out an entire flock!!!

That's how it can be overlooked...

Gosh I sound like an ex smoker preaching

Any way Plum lets hope a few people read this and put it in their memory banks... It might save a chook or too.

[Plum]

I suppose one's opinion and advice is clouded by what you experience yourself. While worms are very common and most likely cause of loose droppings if you have experienced something else then that will come to the front of your mind when a problem happens and you are in danger of giving that experience a dispraportionate amount of credibility.

 

So someone who has had a bad worm attack will think worms, someone who has had bacterial enteritis will immediately think of that and I think ooh is that Coccidia and I guess that is why we really need to consult a vet and let them take the balanced view. Not that it is wrong to be aware of signs of problems and increase knowledge its just too easy to let your judgement be clouded by past experience.

[sandyhas3chucks]

Absolutely agree, same goes for Vets too. Esp if they have read the other info, they may not think it that important sadly.

That is why i prefer to send a sample off tootsweet and then discuss again with my vet who has most likely given me Baytril to start with which may well buy them some time if it is bacterial I guess.

Takes "some" of the guess work out!

Just to say that knowing i do have a high worm incidence here, the fIrst voice I hear in my Head is "E" . "have you wormed recently"..

easy and fast to eliminate.

great advice

[The Dogmother]

I have to say that I always recommend worming as the first step when anything runny-bum-wise rears its head - it is usually the answer in the majority of cases.

[Egluntyne]

I agree.

 

Coccidiosis would normally make itself pretty obvious, and would likely affect affect more than one hen. There are several strains of course, in general it would be spottable, if there is such a word, without sending samples off and incurring extra expense.

[Chucky Mama]

I am not an expert but have put together a little info that you may find of interest. Many adult birds will have developed an immunity to cocci as a result of exposure and recovery when they were young. It is more of a problem in the young, the sick and birds kept in large number or in insanitary conditions. Small numbers of oocysts can be found in healthy birds that will not cause any problem. Coccidiosis is opportunist however and if a bird becomes unwell, anorexic or dehydrated the cocci can take a hold and cause clinical signs. I would therefore keep an eye on your girl Sandy in case there is something else going on. How high was the cocci count on the sample that you submitted? Were you advised as to whether you need to treat the rest of your birds?

 

As mentioned, there are various different types of cocci

 

Most serious cases of intestinal coccidiosis are caused by E. necatrix. Cecal coccidiosis is due to E. tenella

 

Coccidiosis caused by E. tenella symptoms seen 3 days after infection. Chickens droop, stop feeding, huddle together, and by the fourth day, blood begins to appear in faeces. This increases by day five or six, and by the eighth or ninth day, the bird is either dead or on the way to recovery. Death often occurs between the fourth and sixth days. Death may occur unexpectedly, owing to excessive blood loss. Birds that recover may develop a chronic illness as a result of a persistent cecal core. However, the core usually detaches itself by eight to ten days and is shed in the droppings.

 

E. necatrix causes a more chronic disease than E. tenella and does not produce as many oocysts. Birds heavily infected with E. necatrix may die before any marked change is noticed in weight or before blood is found in faeces.

 

E. acervulina is less pathogenic than E. tenella or E. necatrix. E. acervulina is responsible for subacute or chronic intestinal coccidiosis in broilers, older birds and chickens at the point of lay. The clinical signs consist of weight loss and a watery, whitish diarrhoea.

 

 

 

E. maxima produces few marked changes in the small intestine until the fifth day after infection. After that time in severe infections, numerous small hemorrhages occur along with a marked production of thick mucus. The intestine loses tone and becomes flaccid and dilated. The inner surface is inflamed, and the intestinal content consists of a pinkish mucoid secretion.

[sandyhas3chucks]

Yes that is what I read, but this girl did not present as text books suggest.

Apparently there will be a vet written article in the next BHWT which might be interesting.

It is well known ex bats are suseptable on release as they have no natural immunity but as I said my girl is a year released.

I also know of someone with many exbats that was constantly getting it (she actually has OCD and cleanliness is def def not a cause.They now use oregano based product and have not had a recurrence.

Wild birds carry it and pigeon fanciers apparently treat every 6 months prophylactically.. ?????????

I guess if my girl has a problem now I will actually never know if it is due to damage done by the parasite or as you suggest.

She was a happy healthy laying regularly 2kg bird before and appears like that now though has only just started laying again and uber thin shells.

It was NOT high growth reported but it was a very early sample so reading how fast it can take them I guess I was really lucky... there was also scanty Candida nothing else...

And sorry no I do not know which type so therefore do not know where she might have been carrying them.

MOST articles say identification is obvious on post mortem, suggesting death is inevitable,

[sandyhas3chucks]

Coccidiosis would normally make itself pretty obvious, and would likely affect affect more than one hen. There are several strains of course, in would be spottable, if there is such a word, without sending samples off and incurring extra expense

 

That is precisely what I thought.

I sent the sample off expecting something else!!!

If I had not she would be dead, she was not responding to antibiotics, both oral baytril and 2 injections BEFORE the result came back.

[sandyhas3chucks]

I came across this and found it most enlightening.

 

Quote from: "Will2"

Hi everyone,

 

Firstly an introduction, I am Will, the vet who saw TMG's Polands. I work at Castle Vets in Barnard Castle. I work with all farm animals and am particularly interested in poultry. I also keep an increasing number of broilers and laying hens myself and intend on starting to breed them next year.

 

I thought it might be useful to add some more information about coccidiosis in poultry to this discussion.

 

Coccidiosis is caused by an internal protozoal parasite of the intestinal tract. There are many different species of coccidia and each species of coccidia will only affect one species of animal, so a chicken coccidia will not infect a cow or a turkey or a duck or vice versa, although nearly all domestic species are affected by one species of coccidia or another.

 

There are nine species of coccicdia that can survive in chickens. Of these six (Eimeria tenella, E. necatrix, E. brunetti, E. acervulina, E. maxima and E. praecox) cause obvious disease, E. mivati causes only minor disease and E. hagani and E. mitis may be present but do not cause any harm to the chicken.

 

Each species of coccidia will live in a specific part of the intestine. In this case the worst affected part was the caeca. This indicates that the most likely species to be present was E. tenella. This is one of the most severe types of coccidia. With this species, one of the first symptoms is often sudden deaths in the flock. Other symptoms of coccidia include anorexia, depression, dullness, reduced weight gain, reduced egg production, diarrhoea and blood or mucous in the faeces.

 

An infected chicken will have been infected for a considerable time (weeks) before it starts to show any signs of disease. During this time it will be excreting large numbers of oocysts into the environment in its faeces. These can survive well in the environment and are a potential source of infection for other birds in the group, especially where faeces contaminate drinkers and / or feeders. Birds are infected by ingesting (eating) oocysts. For this reason, once one bird has been diagnosed with coccidiosis, it is important to treat the whole group.

 

Coccidiosis can be diagnosed most easily by post mortem examination of a dead bird, but also by examination of the faeces for oocysts in a laboratory.

 

Treatment is usually by medication in the water. I usually opt for Baycox 2.5% solution as I have had alot of good results with this. However, once a bird has had coccidiosis, there may be long lasting gut damage, which may affect its productivity / growth for its entire life.

 

Prevention of coccidiosis relies upon the principle of ensuring that the resistance of the birds to infection is greater than the challenge they receive from their environment.

 

The resistance of the birds can be increased directly by using medicated feeds or by vaccination and indirectly by ensuring all management factors are well controlled and that the birds are otherwise in good health, as a bird that is ill with one disease will be more susceptible to other diseases.

 

The environmental challenge can be reduced by general good hygiene measures, however coccidia oocysts are very tough and are resistant to many disinfectants. However, they are very susceptible to extremes of hot and cold, so steam cleaning is a good way of getting rid of them, ammonia based disinfectants are a second best. Also, keeping groups seperate from each other and not introducing new birds will reduce the chances of introducing an infection to an established group.

 

I hope this is not too long and boring! and that it is of some help.

 

Will

[Plum]

Interesting contributions

 

Perhaps we ought to look at a different disease each month and all bring our contributions, experience and the evidence. It's only too easy to give advice on this forum from anecdotes, for which by the way I am eternally grateful. I'm not knocking it