chickenanne Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 [quote name="pdcambs There is a big difference between resistance within a long lived animals like ourselves in regard to antimalerials or Tamiflu' date=' where exposure to (or build up of) a substance causes a tolerance, and mutation driven resistance in short lived animals such as the Varroa mite. ....quote] Maybe I'm misunderstanding you - but we don't become resistant to anti-malarials, anti-virus meds, nor anti-biotics.... In the case of anti-malarials, its the parasite which causes malaria that develops resistance, not the person receiving the medicine. It isn't a particularly long-lived parasite, same as varroa isn't. There's more than one possible explanation for pyrethroyd-resistance spreading from SE England upward: for example, resistance could have been observed in the SE first simply becuase that's where pyrethroyds had been used the longest (due to varroa spread). Alternatively, it is just as possible for it to be that too-low doses were used allowing resistance to develop (as pyrethroyd traces can be found in combs anyone who has used pyrethroyds is likely to have a very low-level remaining in the hive). It could have been a purely one-off mutation, but the fact that it was first observes in SE and spread from there does not proove that it was. I do sound like I'm defending Bayer here, which isn't really my intent: I am just far from convinced that this particulat anti-Bayer accusation is fair. Either way, it's kind of a moot point now anyway, as in many /most areas pyrethroyds no longer work, so we need to find some other way of managing varroa anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beesontoast Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 There's more than one possible explanation for pyrethroyd-resistance spreading from SE England upward: for example, resistance could have been observed in the SE first simply becuase that's where pyrethroyds had been used the longest (due to varroa spread). Varroa was first discovered in the UK in 1992 (south west, not south east) and spread across the country from there, as later did pyrethroid resistance. Contemporaneously, pyrethroids were being used in insecticidal sprays in agriculture, offering the bees low residual doses from their forage in addition to beekeeper-applied doses. Ideal conditions for resistance to develop. And the prevailing wind blows from the SW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdcambs Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Maybe I'm misunderstanding you - but we don't become resistant to anti-malarials, anti-virus meds, nor anti-biotics.... In the case of anti-malarials, its the parasite which causes malaria that develops resistance, not the person receiving the medicine. It isn't a particularly long-lived parasite, same as varroa isn't. Oh quite right, I've got that wrong haven’t I, opps. The point I'm trying to make though, is that blame for resistance has been firmly placed at the feet of beekeepers for misusing treatment, mainly by the manufacturers. Where as, while it's true that some beekeepers have not followed the prescribed methods, such misuse is not the cause of resistance, it's developed due to a genetic mutation within one mite that has then spread. I'm not a scientist myself, but my understanding is based on what I have read on some of the most well respected beekeeping fora on the net; as there are some very well respected beekeepers with scientific backgrounds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickenanne Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 It's insane isn't it: misuse would increase the chances of resistance, but it would almost certainly have happened eventuially anyway - it's absorbed into the combs for a start! And it's inevitable that someone somewhere will "misuse" it, by storing the strips badly, for instance. Either way, Apistan and Bayverol are irrelevant to many beeks now. So, what's everyone going for - oxalic acid? apiguard (or thymol crystals?) formic acid or something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdcambs Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 So, what's everyone going for - oxalic acid? apiguard (or thymol crystals?) formic acid or something else? I only did an oxalic trickle last year and so far I've not seen enough mite to treat this year, but if I do I would prefer to go with Apiguard while the temperature is still good. I don't like oxalic as i regard it, a so called, hard treatment; it's so harmful to us when administering it that it can't be good for the bees (just my opinion) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickenanne Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 my mentor did an OA treatment on mine in the spring- but as a sublimation. Apparantly it's gentler on the bees than a trickle method, but the thought of pottering about with a DIY device which entails using a gas mask on a Sunday afternoon doesn't appeal to me! I'm going for the apiguard option in teh enxt couple weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdcambs Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 my mentor did an OA treatment on mine in the spring- but as a sublimation. Apparantly it's gentler on the bees than a trickle method, but the thought of pottering about with a DIY device which entails using a gas mask on a Sunday afternoon doesn't appeal to me!I'm going for the apiguard option in teh enxt couple weeks. I've got one of those too, used it a couple of years ago but found it tiresome to use and more dangerous (to me) than the trickle. I think neither are good for the bees, all be it lethal to the mite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beesontoast Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Call me old-fashioned, but I just can't bring myself to open a hive in the middle of winter and pour acid over my bees... or spray them with it either. I guess I will stick with the powdered sugar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lesley Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 We used Thymol last year and were going to try Icing Sugar this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickenanne Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Call me old-fashioned, but I just can't bring myself to open a hive in the middle of winter and pour acid over my bees... or spray them with it either. I guess I will stick with the powdered sugar. I don't like the idea either, but I had varroa levels high enough to cuase twisted wing etc back in April (when I acquired the bees and hive). I don't thin sugar-dusting would have been enough at that critical point. I've been dusting all summer and it has kept levels in check I'm sure (but then I was also queenless & therefore broodless for a good few weeks...!). I know the bees ahte Thymol, but I'm going to treat with that now anyway as the levels are still on the high side. I would rather disturb them now with Thymol than be doing it when I have - what should be - a good early spring flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
