Different brand auto door??

[One Man Banned]

I got the July copy of Organic Life magazine yesterday and on page 6 is a distressing article about bird flu.

 

A new regulation allowing poultry flocks to be suffocated as part of a bird flu cull has outraged animal welfare groups. DEFRA (Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs) announced the "last resort" procedure under emergency changes to the 1995 Welfare of Animals (Slaughter and Killing) Regulations. It means the Secretary of State now has the power to authorise "ventilation shutdowns" of poultry sheds should bird flu take hold. CIWF (Compassion in World Farming) says the procedure entails sealing all apertures on poultry sheds and cutting ventilation systems, leaving the birds to die from oxygen depletion and overheating. It says that would be a clear breach of international World Animal Health Organization guidelines. CIWF cheif executive Philip Lymbery believes it would cause "terrible suffering" and a protracted death for the birds. "Many birds will die in shocking circumstances," he says, "and we could be faced with scenes of piles of dead birds akin to the shocking scenes witnessed during the height of the Foot and Mouth crisis." DEFRA has insisted ventilation shutdown will only be ordered as an absolute last resort.

 

This is absolutely disgraceful and I can't believe that our Government passed such a damning regulation.

 

Is there anything that can be done to get such a ruling overturned, lobbying our MP's and MEP's for a start?

 

I will be honest and say that I felt sick when I read that article, there are more humane ways to deal with such a crisis and such a "guideline" for a last resort shouldn't be planned in advance, it's set up in place to be acted upon and will more than likely be used as a method of dealing with the problem of Bird Flu at an early stage should the UK be affected.

 

What's everyone elses thoughts?

[Guest]

Well.... it is a "last resort", so it all depends on what "last resort" means. Is it when Bird Flu is rapant across the UK, jumping from farm to farm so quickly that emergency measures need to be introduced? It is shocking reading, but I doubt they would ever need to go to these extremes. I guess they have to plan for a worse case scenario.... and this is it.

[Lesley]

...but even with a 'worst case scenario' I would have thought there was a more humane way of dealing with the problem?

[Guest]

.... and if there isn't time for that? What if it's spreading so fast and DEFRA don't have the staff to get there and gas them or whatever. If a farmer has barn-loads of chickens, bird flu is spreading fast, DEFRA don't have the staff, but he gets an order to cull his flock...... how does he do it?

 

I don't think it would ever happen - I just can't ever see things getting this bad.

[Sheilaz]

I'd take the same view as Graham if I was sure that Last Resort really meant last resort, all other options explored. The scenario, which hopefully is really unlikely, that a virus was so rampant and out of control that an immediate cull had to be enforced by the quickest method.

Worst case scenarios do have to be allowed for, but one would hope that an awful lot of measures preceded such an outcome.

So, the cynical bit. Would I trust that the Last Resort plan would not be brought in suddenly, bypassing perfectly adequate precautions and sensible controls?

Media hype, government panic & power struggle.

Virus may strike in 45 minutes, farmers are hiding Viruses of Mass Destruction.

We'd better use the Last Resort.......

P.S. Yes, that method sounds sickening & should def. be avoided if at all possible.

P.P.S. I still think that sometime there will be a human 'flu pandemic, but it will most likely spread from Asia through human travel, with threats of bird 'flu here being a red herring in terms of the real risks of such a pandemic arising.

[Guest]

My guess is that they have considered many alternatives...

 

my problem is conceiving why such immediate/urgent culling of a barnfull of chickens would be necessary.

 

Even if an entire shed of battery hens is infected - the only way they can spread it elsewhere is through other (wild) birds or through human contact (chicken poo on boots etc..) - rats can't spread it yet, can they?

 

if they're in a shed, then this is minimised, surely? So why the need for such haste?

 

I doubt that gassing is always very practical in a giant shed - and I suspect that there is no method of mass culling that people would be comfortable watching on TV after neighbours...

 

but withdrawing ventilation and starvation seems to be un-necessarily cruel to me.

 

My best guess is that this is (as GRD and Sheila suggest) at the very end of a long list of alternatives and is very unlikely ever to come about... at least I hope so...

 

Phil

[Hellcat]

That is disgraceful. There must be a better way, poison in the food, gassing through said vents (reminiscent of Nazi Germany I know but a possibility) etc rather than let animals spend potentially days in horrific conditions.

 

Re sheilas comments about the flu pandemic, completely agree. I think it will come from person to person contact too.

 

I was alarmed last weekend when I found out that my neice and nephew (2 and a half and 4 months) were to have BCG (TB) vaccinations, as there has been a huge increase of this in the London area. To be honest, this alarms me more than the thought of a flu pandemic...

[Cate in NZ]

To respond to you Helen G with the TB comment. There is a huge increase in TB, so the government response is to target TB vaccinations to where they feel they are most needed, and to give them within the first year of life to those considered at risk. Your nephew & neice are obviously part of a catch up campaign.

The downside is that those considered to be at less risk don't get vaccinated, and my children age 13 & 14 were due to have BCG vaccs this year. However we are deemed at low risk, therefore they can't have them on the NHS. I can pay and go private of course...... at just over £100 each

 

Back on topic I think that this method of mass extermination sounds horrific, and will incite even more panic when themedia get hold of it. I can see the logic in absolute extreme circumstances.... but if the birds aren't infected and kept inside so they can't be infected, surely there's no problem. Gassing sounds more humane, if absolutely necessary.

I'm entirely in agreement about human global travel being the most likely cause of a flu pandemic.

[The Dogmother]

Wow, it's a big subject. I agree with Sheila on this. It's dreadful to think of, but it sounds like it woul dbe the absolute last measure. As Helen said, i'd hope that they would give it more thought and come up with something less distressing for the birds.

[Sheilaz]

But I also query does a Last Resort ever get brought forward to be deemed as absolutely necessary, bypassing more acceptable precautions?

[The Dogmother]

Good point Sheila - probably, knowing the government!

[Sheilaz]

As in "Trust me, I know something, but I can't tell you about it..."

[The Dogmother]

Exactly! I never trust politicians, especially when they're smiling, which Mr Blair does an awful lot

[One Man Banned]

one view that I think about is that when all is said and done the government have the power to use this legislation, do the deed, and then (as in IRAQ style) say

"Oh we seem to have made a mistake" blad de blah

 

Only our government will decide what is the last resort and it won't have anything to do with us that's for sure as there'll be some over paid hyped up PR guru smiling all the while telling us its a good thing.......

 

If there needs to be a cull then DEFRA should have a last resort that involes using vets throuhout the country to dispose of the bird humanely.

 

If there was a flu pandemic in 1 million old people we wouldn't go round the old people's home turning off the heating and letting them all just die just in case they affect younger people.

 

There has GOT to be another way to deal with such a problem if it should it arise. The government admitted that it got things wrong with how they handled Foot and Mouth, seeing lorry loads of still live animals tipped out to be burned. It wasn't the right way in hindsight but at the time was made to seem like "the last resort" to get a hold of the problem.

 

I think the power to do this has got to be taken back from the Government. They have enough brainy people to work out other solutions rather than a "just kill 'em off- out of sight out of mind" attitude.

[Hellcat]

Exactly! I never trust politicians, especially when they're smiling, which Mr Blair does an awful lot

 

I have another rule - never trust a politician if they're talking!

[The Dogmother]

Too right Helen!

[spacedhopper]

The last resort dilema may brought in if its deemed the most cost effective too.

[One Man Banned]

The last resort dilema may brought in if its deemed the most cost effective too.

 

I was wondering if anyone would pick up on that element!

[The Dogmother]

Yup, they're happy to provide ministerial Jags and other perks, but equally happy to slash spending in more needful areas.

[The Dogmother]

Just got this from the EU. sounds like that with the reduction in people buying poultry products, they are looking at ways to reduce the stock. Perhaps they also ought to consider less intensive forms of farming now that there's less demand .

 

Brussels, 21 June 2006

 

Avian flu: Commission proposes 'upstream' measures to support poultry market

 

The management committee for eggs and poultry today approved a Commission proposal to allow the co-financing by the EU budget of measures to support the poultry market, because of the negative effects of the recent avian flu crisis. The proposal specifies the type of measures which can be 50 percent financed by the EU. It focuses on 'upstream' measures, i.e. those which aim to temporarily reduce production, such as the destruction of hatching eggs. It sets a maximum level of compensation per unit destroyed as well as the maximum number of units per Member State and the time period covered by each measure. The Commission does not propose co-financing of 'downstream' measures such as aid for private storage or the destruction of existing stocks of poultry meat. Some 14 Member States have applied for EU support for their poultry sector. The expected cost to the EU budget of the measures proposed is between €50 and €65 million.

 

"The dramatic decline in poultry consumption and prices earlier this year was an extraordinary situation which required extraordinary measures," commented Mariann Fischer Boel, Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development. "I believe our proposals will give farmers the flexibility to adjust their production to the market situation without prolonging market imbalances unnecessarily. I am against aid for private storage and the destruction of stocks of meat. Thanks to the recent improvement in the market situation, the industry should be able to use existing stocks."

 

The measures which can be covered are as follows:

 

The destruction of hatching eggs;

Processing of hatching eggs;

The destruction of chicks (of chicken, guinea fowl, duck, turkey and goose);

The early slaughter of some of the breeding flock;

The extension of periods of temporary non-production beyond three weeks;

Voluntary reduction in output by reduced placing of chicks;

Early slaughter of ready to lay pullets.

The following Member States have requested aid measures:

 

Czech Republic, Germany, Greece, Spain, France, Ireland, Italy, Cyprus, Hungary, the Netherlands, Austria, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia.

 

Background:

 

At the height of the recent avian flu crisis, consumption of poultry and eggs fell dramatically in some Member States, leading to a sharp reduction in prices. Previously, the regulations governing the eggs and poultry market allowed the EU to co-finance compensation measures only in cases where there was a case of avian flu on a farm or where farmers were prevented from moving their poultry because of restrictions imposed on veterinary orders. There was no possibility to provide EU aid to take account of market problems linked to a fall in sales caused by a loss of consumer confidence.

 

Because of the gravity of the market crisis in some countries, the Commission therefore proposed to co-finance 50 percent of market support measures, with national budgets paying the other half (see IP/06/400). After the adoption of the proposal by the Council on 25 April, 14 Member States submitted their proposed measures to the Commission.

 

Anyone got any idea what they mean by the terms 'upstream' and 'downstream'?

 

I am worried about how they plan to go about this proposed culling of chicks and pullets - perhaps they are going to use the method that Andrew mentioned

[Ruth]

 

Anyone got any idea what they mean by the terms 'upstream' and 'downstream'?

 

 

I THINK (but am not sure) that they are seeing the production of poultry meat as a "stream" (egg - chick - chicken - meat) with the egg being "upstream" and saying that it is better to reduce the upstream production (e.g. reduce the number of eggs hatched), than the downstream (culling grown chickens, or storing or destroying poultry meat).

 

I guess this makes some sense (if it was not written in completely impenetrable EU-speak!), as I hate to think of chickens being raised for meat (which is bad enough if they are kept enclosed), and then the meat never being used.

 

Thanks too to Andrew for the original post - what a dreadful concept. I too am very concerned that the "last resort" can all too easily become the first option as soon as the headlines start to appear.

[The Dogmother]

Thanks for that Ruth, it was of 'ambiguous transparency'