Omlet Smart Autodoor - New in box

[mullethunter]

I was trying to find out the differences in welfare between FR egg producers and organic (had to buy eggs to make pavlova thus week - Bernadettes aren't quite up to it!) earlier, and came across beak trimming. I knew it happened but had never considered it with respect to 'higher welfare' hens. I emailed the two firms I tend to buy my FR eggs from (one local and one national) to ask if they beak trim. The local company came straight back and said they use infra red at 1 day old. I googled the process and can't decide if I think it's not too bad, horrific, or unpleasant but necessary. I'd be interested to know what others think?

[jeshen]

I've just googled this too, mullethunter. Apparently the practice started in the 1930s. The crux of it seems to be that it's mutilating an animal to prevent cannibalism because the animal is being kept in unsuitable conditions. Apparently it's likely that the procedure causes acute pain, although I don't know if that's the case with the infra-red method. No doubt someone more knowledgable will tell us more about it.

[PixieDust]

I have just googled it as well. Call me daft but I honestly had no idea they did this cruel practice. Found reading this very upsetting but glad I now know they do this. Poor girls

[Cat tails]

I think it is comparable to dehorning of cows and tail trimming in pigs and sheep. All of them done, to make it easier and more safe to keep these animals.

One of the studies I found googling stated that all methods induce pain in chickens. They observed about a week of symptoms like eating less and less preening feathers, but after a week, the chickens returned to their normal behaviour.

[gavclojak]

DEFRA are conducting a review on beak trimming with a view to banning the practice in 2016. Watch this space

[Beantree]

It's a barbaric practice, no matter how you 'dress it up'. Hope it is banned, then they will fit beak bits like the pheasant rears do.

[jeshen]

Apparently it's been banned in Switzerland since 1992. They've managed to deal with the problem in a non-barbaric way for the last 22 years. Why haven't we done the same?

[gavclojak]

It's a barbaric practice, no matter how you 'dress it up'. Hope it is banned, then they will fit beak bits like the pheasant rears do.

 

I agree, it's just another indignity poor commercial hens have to endure, the beak is a sensory organ so beantree is right, it's barbaric! Better welfare standards would remove the need for beak trimming.

[Cat tails]

I'm not saying I'm pro beak trimming. Not at all! And indeed we need better welfare standards for these chickens.

But I don't hear anyone making a racket about dehorning and tail clipping. Both also done without pain relief.

We sometimes forget that our dairy cows normally all would have had horns, but we can also recognise that having cows with a proper set of horns can be a real danger to the farmer.

[gavclojak]

No I agree, my daughter also has a real issue with wool production and the barbaric methods of sheering, gosh there is so much to put right isn't there?

But I guess that's commercial farming for you, I really don't blame the farmer though, it's supply and demand unfortunately and although I an very careful what I buy I still feel like I'm treading water.

[Cat tails]

Here in the Netherlands docking is illegal in dogs and cats luckily. You could be sued for animal cruelty if you own a dog or cat with a docked tail or ears.

I think this is a great thing. It is a weird practice... mutilating your pet to make it look better...

[gavclojak]

It's illegal here too since 2007 but I think there maybe exemptions for working dogs.

The breeder of my two little guys was intreaged when she bred their litter, she had not bred Griffons that had not been docked before.

[mullethunter]

I agree that the majority of these 'mutilation' practices are horrible. The trouble is that it's likely that stocking densities would have to be massively lower to make them unnecessary, which would mean animal products would be significantly more expensive, and in general I don't think the majority of people are ready to accept that. After all the Jamie Oliver programs about intensively reared chickens were on prime time TV and I bet the vast majority of chicken sold is still not higher welfare.

 

I'd be interested to know how the Swiss do things.

[jeshen]

From a 'Compassion in World Farming' report of July 2008 by Heather Pickett. (page 9)

 

Experience in Switzerland, where both battery cages and beak trimming have been prohibited, indicates that, with experience, beak trimming can be avoided (FAWC, 2007). Battery cages have not been permitted in Switzerland since 1992 and beak trimming has been prohibited since 2001 (Fröhlich, 2008). Some of the factors that are likely to be important in the success of non-cage systems without beak trimming in Switzerland include:

• Breed choice: The majority (60%) of laying hens in Switzerland are white-feathered strains, which are less prone to feather pecking and cannibalism and are well suited to non-cage systems (Fröhlich, 2008);

• Outdoor access: The majority of laying hens in Switzerland have outdoor access, with 81% of flocks having access to a wintergarden and 65% of flocks having access to both a wintergarden and free-range area (Fröhlich, 2008);

• Housing conditions: Almost all laying hens in Switzerland (over 99%) have access to litter and the majority (over 80%) have access to raised perches (Häne et al, 2000);

• System design: Many systems in Switzerland are structured to provide separate areas for separate functions and “traffic trails” or roadways to allow hens to move between tiers or from one part of the system to another without disturbing other birds (Jendral, 2005);

• Rearing conditions: All pullets in Switzerland are reared with access to litter and many also have access to perches (50%) and a wintergarden (32%) (Huber-Eicher, 1999).

Beak trimming has also been banned in Norway, Finland and Sweden.

Conclusions and recommendations

Beak trimming, both by hot-blade and infra-red techniques, has several adverse consequences for laying hen welfare and should be avoided. Evidence from the scientific literature and from practical experience demonstrates that feather pecking and cannibalism can be controlled in non-cage systems without beak trimming through (i) the use of appropriate strains and selective breeding to further reduce the hens’ propensity to feather peck and (ii) good design of non-cage systems and implementation of a range of preventive management practices.

Experience in Switzerland, where both battery cages and beak trimming have been prohibited, indicates that, with experience, beak trimming can be avoided.

[Cat tails]

I agree that the majority of these 'mutilation' practices are horrible. The trouble is that it's likely that stocking densities would have to be massively lower to make them unnecessary, which would mean animal products would be significantly more expensive, and in general I don't think the majority of people are ready to accept that. After all the Jamie Oliver programs about intensively reared chickens were on prime time TV and I bet the vast majority of chicken sold is still not higher welfare.

 

I'd be interested to know how the Swiss do things.

 

Next to more expensive, lower stocking densities also come with more pollution.

Apparently rearing fast growing chickens in big closed barn systems is the most environmentally friendly way of producing meat. Producing the least waste, gasses, by products etc per kg of meat. Rearing slow growing chickens on open grass land puts a far bigger strain on the environment, bringing all of it's own problems with it.

The only solution to this dilemma is eating less meat.

[mullethunter]

I love meat and struggle to make a range of meat free meals that OH and I enjoy. But the older I get and the more I find out about farming practices the more I'm leaning towards trying to become either meat free, or to eat meat MUCH less and only when I know exactly how the animals have been reared I.e. very small scale by people I know.

[gavclojak]

Both my daughter and i have been vegitarian a long while, I do agree it takes a bit if thinking about especially with two meat eating men in the house too. To be honest we have several days when OH is meat free and doesn't even realise it:))

[Beantree]

Chickens slow reared taste far better, whether it is less environmentally friendly or not. They have more of a life and use their muscles, which develops fibrous meat and not the 'stick to your teeth' mush of the UK fast grown market. Why people tolerate eating such slop is a mystery to me. Perhaps it has something to do with the war, which was 70 years ago.

 

Yes, some breeds tend to feather peck more than others in my experience. Wyandottes, developed in the wide expanse of America, are particularly bad and we've had to cull for that reason.

[PixieDust]

I am not a veggie but I am not a huge meat eater. We no longer eat beef or pork, but we like lamb chicken and turkey and seafood. I am not sure how I will feel eating chicken after 15th November.

[gavclojak]

I am not a veggie but I am not a huge meat eater. We no longer eat beef or pork, but we like lamb chicken and turkey and seafood. I am not sure how I will feel eating chicken after 15th November.

 

Haha that's the thing, I only ever ate chicken so giving up meat once I looked into getting chicken wasn't difficult for me in the slightest.

[Cat tails]

I personally really like meat...(even chicken... ) But eating less is something I really try to do. Limiting my meat intake to about 100 g a day is what I go for. Ideally I should eat even less, but one has to start somewhere.

I don't like soy products (most meat replacers) because soy beans are mostly produced in tropical countries, replacing rain forests and making for a very monotonous fauna. They are often produced in very environmentally unfriendly ways and the transport is very polluting too.

[Mrs_B]

I really dislike beak trimming - over the last year I've looked at a lot of battery farm practices and it's been enough to stop me eating anything with egg in it unless it's free range (ice cream, ready meals etc). I always ask in restaurants about the meat and eggs.

 

I had a family friend basically laugh in my face about me not trimming my hens' beaks recently - in front of people! It was a bit embarrassing, and everyone didn't know where to look. He didn't understand why I wouldn't trim beaks!! When I send about nerve endings and pain etc he laughed and said he was a farmer and he would always do it as it's 'just a chicken' - he also asked if I get upset when one dies, and how stupid it was to do so.

 

Human beings need to get a grip and realise they aren't the be all and end all of everything and show some compassion - I am at the end of my tether with some people as you can tell

 

x

[jeshen]

Quite agree with you Mrs B. We've lost 97% of tigers in the world in one century. Polar bears and rhinos are in a dire state. Just a few examples. Much of it is to do with the sickening attitude towards animals that you describe.

[mullethunter]

I%20had%20a%20family%20friend%20basically%20laugh%20in%20my%20face%20about%20me%20not%20trimming%20my%20hens'%20beaks%20recently

 

What a horrible man - is he still a friend?!

Edited October 2, 2014 by Guest

[Mrs_B]

Quite agree with you Mrs B. We've lost 97% of tigers in the world in one century. Polar bears and rhinos are in a dire state. Just a few examples. Much of it is to do with the sickening attitude towards animals that you describe.

 

It's very upsetting, if only things would change!

 

x

 

What a horrible man - is he still a friend?!

 

No friend of mine at least! It was the first time I met him too - I had heard of him before through other members of the family but never met him before...so thankfully he's not in my circle to really worry about bumping into him very often! I was polite before but that was because it was in front of other people - my patience would wear very thin if he's that fickle about animals being in pain!

 

x