spacehead Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Hi everyone, this is my first post here after lurking for a couple of weeks. I've wanted to keep chickens for a while and have finally convinced my wife it's a good idea, especially after the Hugh and Jamie programmes on tv recently. I'm set on a cube as we have good garden space for a run and free ranging and was all set to order when my neighbour mentioned there might be a covenant preventing me from keeping chickens. Our house was built in 1999 and the developer completed and left the site in 2002. There is a covenant which says we undertake not to keep poultry, pigeons or animals (except domestic ones) without written permission from the company. However, they left 6 years ago so what happens now? My gut feel is to just go for it but am I wrong to do so. If I need to get permission, who do i get it from? Any budding legal experts out there? Thanks very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRC99 Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I think that you are probably very unlikely to get released from that covenant. The cost involved alone would make it unlikely. So, the strict answer is that you should not keep them. However, being more practical, a key issue is whether anyone is going to complain. If you've got good relations with your neighbours then no-one is going to complain and it's unlikely to be an issue. There is also the cost factor on someone taking legal action to enforce this. Again, unlikely, but there are some odd people out there. Ultimately, it's your call. You know your neighbours! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelsea Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 (edited) Welcome to the forum. Our house deeds also state no chickens or pigeons, but we went ahead and got them anyway. This year is our 2nd year of chicken keeping and no complaints with the neighbours. Of course I am no legal expert, and dont want to advise you to do something that may cause you trouble, I just wanted to advise you of our situation, - everyone's is different. I would have a look around your estate and have a gander - has anyone else gone against the covenant - ie - caravans, high fences, commercial vans etc etc? Why not have a word with your neighbours and test the water with them before making your decision, are they the type of people that would complain? Maybe someone will come along with some legal advice in a mo. Of course if this is written into your deeds and someone does complain/dispute they are well within their rights. but we are happy to take the risk As I said we havent had any trouble - so we've been lucky, good luck with your quest Edited February 15, 2008 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milly Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 There is a long thread about it in the FAQs. It's called "Council Regulations", but covers all sorts of properties. I think it boils down to the fact that no one really knows what would happen! And if you don't know who to ask to get permission, your neighbours wouldn't know who to complain to. But of course, you don't want to find you live next to the neighbour who knows everything. But maybe someone else will have a better reply. Milly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacehead Posted February 15, 2008 Author Share Posted February 15, 2008 Wow, 3 replies in 15 minutes, what helpful people! Thanks. I think I'm just going to go for it. The exact wording is "...the Purchaser shall not keep or permit the keeping of any poultry pigeons or animals (other than a domestic animal not used for breeding purposes) on the Property without the previous written consent of the Company." So it doesn't say I can't keep them, it says I can't without the company's permission. Surely with their interests in the site having expired six years ago, it is not practical to write asking their permission? If the neighbours complained (which I don't expect they will but you never know), who would they complain to anyway? There is nothing on the council site preventing me from keeping them (indeed some neighbours in the old cottages down the road have them). As an aside, you can't have a satellite dish without their permission but most houses have one! I may email the council on Monday and get their view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 If they insist that you can't have the hens, then you would be within your rights to demand that all satellite dishes are removed, and all caravans or whatever else is in breach of the covenant are removed. I'd risk it, and if there is a problem later, retrospectively ask for permission, especially as your chickens will be pets, not commercial animals. With the move towards greener living etc, it would be a bit of an own goal if the developer said no...especially if you were to go public about it! I'd be very careful about doing everything in your power to keep rats at bay. If there is one thing that excercises neighbours greatly...it is the sight of a rat....and they tend to blame the chickens, although the rats were there all along, you are just more likely to notice them if chickens are about. Go for it I'd say! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabergé Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Strictly speaking you do need to ask the developer for written consent even though all properties were sold 6 years ago. You could state that you are keeping chickens as domestic pets & not for breeding purposes or any other commercial reason. Covenants on a property don't ever 'expire' as such however long ago they were written in to the deeds. I think your best bet as others have said though is to test the water with your neighbours to find out if any of them are likely to object. If they really wanted to be awkward (& have the time & money to pursue it), they would be within their legal right to prevent you having chickens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanchick Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Does anyone actually know of a case where a neighbour pursued this, i.e. not just threatened it? I don't know how someone would go about "prosecuting" a neighbour for going against these covenants. It would certainly cost them money to get a solicitor involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatsCube Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I would be a little wary of why it is your neighbour has pointed this out to you. Makes me wonder if they were trying to find a way to stop you, hence finding this out and piinting it out to you. Basically as a way of saying they dont like the idea of you having them, but they dont want to say so and are instead finding excuses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ain't Nobody Here Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Can't really add to the above except to say that I would think your neighbours are far less likely to complain if you inform them of your decision before you go ahead. If you arm yourself with the facts about noise, vermin, smell etc you can at least reassure them if they have any worries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacehead Posted February 15, 2008 Author Share Posted February 15, 2008 I guess though that in my case, in practice they would need to get the developer to deal with this as unlike some properties this covenant doesn't say I can't keep them, just that I can't without written permission from the developer. As such surely it's a matter for the developer not the neighbour. And as one of the earlier posts said, if we go down that route, let's see about all those sky dishes on the roof which are also subject to the same restriction, ie need written permission from the developer. The more I've been looking around the internet about this tonight the more I think this sits in the "unenforceable" category like the satellite dish issue (which I and most of my neighbours have been in breach of for some years). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Welcome to the forum by the way Spacehead. Whereabouts in Derbyshire are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ain't Nobody Here Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 I think if you are on good terms with your neighbours, there shouldn't be any problems. Most people are fascinated by the thought of keeping chickens in a back garden . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelsea Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 and most of my neighbours have been in breach of for some years). Thats what we think, if anyone challenged us about our chickens we would say about the speed boat, caravans, camper vans, commercial vans, fences where there shouldnt be fences, satillite dishes in our cul-de-sac, then if we were still challenged we would ask if they'd rather us keep pigs instead because it doesnt state we cant keep them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacehead Posted February 15, 2008 Author Share Posted February 15, 2008 nice point about the pigs chelsea. maybe I should threaten anyone who complains that my plan b is to keep lizards and snakes as pets outdoors! egluntine, i'm not far from Chesterfield, just down the road from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 nice point about the pigs chelsea. maybe I should threaten anyone who complains that my plan b is to keep lizards and snakes as pets outdoors! egluntine, i'm not far from Chesterfield, just down the road from you. Well I never! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 it says you can't keep chickens except domestic chickens. Well, yours will be domestic chickens so I can't see a problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olly Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 The covenant may be enforceable by the developer ... but it is also possible that it's written in a format which makes it enforceable by the developer or their successors in title. Basically, the developer has the rights on the remainder of the estate, until it is sold and then their rights pass to the purchaser - so you and your neighbours have mutually enforceable covenants. I'm guessing, mind - obviously I haven't seen the deeds - but this is the usual set-up. It could still be the developer. If it is, I would think they would be unlikely to grant permission - there's nothing in it for them, and the risk of complaints from disgruntled neighbours if they did. My own feeling would be that the word 'poultry' in this context means keeping chickens as a commercial concern. The fact that they have specifically said 'other than a domestic animal not used for breeding purposes' suggests to me that chickens, kept as domestic animals, would be acceptable. I've researched this, and only found one case, 'Broughton v Bower' from 2006. It's a Court of Appeal case, which means it could only be overruled by the House of Lords. It dealt with the meaning of the word 'domesticated'. The judges found that 'provided the animal is of a species accustomed to being kept by or living with humans ... it does not have to live in the house or be a pet or akin to a pet'. In that cae, they held it to include peacocks, ducks, sheep, turkey, chicken and quail (it was a very large piece of land! ) You can't rely on that, but to answer urbanchick's question above - a neighbour who objected would have to bring a civil action against you. This would cost quite a lot of money, and if you can show that other covenants have been breached and not complained about, and if you could show your chickens were pets, then they would be taking a big risk. I would be inclined to go with it, try and keep the neighbours on side of course, but I doubt there is much they can do about it. The developer (if they still have the benefit of the covenant) might have the money to fund a case, but it's unlikely anyone will tell them. Good luck, and welcome to the forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacehead Posted February 16, 2008 Author Share Posted February 16, 2008 Olly Thanks for taking the time out to post this useful reply. Here's the bit I think is relevant to your point about whether the covenant passes to the neighbours: "The Purchaser hereby covenants with the Company to the intent and so as to bind the Property into whosoever hands the same may come for the benefit of the Development (and each and every part thereof) and of the other adjoining or neighbouring land now or formerly belonging to the Company to observe and perform the covenants and stipulations set out in the Third Schedule" Is this legal speak for it passing to the neighbours. If it is, does that mean I technically have to gain permission from all of them? I hope not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRC99 Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Perhaps your threat, if necessary, would be to seek to enforce the stipulation that satellite dishes are not to be erected. The loss of Sky may well be more pf a deterrent than a threat to keep pigs or lizards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Keep the neighbours well bribed with eggs,do all you can to keep rats down and don't have a rooster! There shouldn't be a problem. There are many Omleteers, me included, whose neighbours had no idea they had got chickens. I find it quite amusing in a way that some folk think they have a right to say what another person can have in their garden. It would never occur to any of us to tell a neighbour....Nah....sorry....you're not having a dog!.....and yet some ( I stress only some!) dogs make a heck of a lot more noise than a handful of chickens). Make your garden escape proof too so that no-one can complain that your hen has damaged their veg patch. Good luck...whatever you decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olly Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Here's the bit I think is relevant to your point about whether the covenant passes to the neighbours: "The Purchaser hereby covenants with the Company to the intent and so as to bind the Property into whosoever hands the same may come for the benefit of the Development (and each and every part thereof) and of the other adjoining or neighbouring land now or formerly belonging to the Company to observe and perform the covenants and stipulations set out in the Third Schedule" Is this legal speak for it passing to the neighbours. If it is, does that mean I technically have to gain permission from all of them? I hope not! Yes - it is. It would depend on the actual covenant, but usually it would only be relevant to land actually adjoining yours. I would go for it - if you ask permission and they refuse, you're in an awkward situation, whereas once you have got them, and they can see that chickens are not noisy, dirty or smelly (common misconceptions) they won't be able to do much about it. As mentioned above, the costs of bringing a civil action are high - they would have to be very determined to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacehead Posted February 16, 2008 Author Share Posted February 16, 2008 Thanks for advice everyone. I'm going for it. The gardens are all big and where I plan to place my chickens will be far from any house. It'll be clean cos my wife will banish them if she sees rats, although the local cat population is very good at keeping them in check. Looking forward to getting them now. Egluntine - any good breeders nearby? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ain't Nobody Here Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Make sure you keep your feed in a metal bin . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Egluntine - any good breeders nearby? The only one I know of locally is **Storrs Poultry** It is a bit of a schlep, and down a very windy track...so don't take the Bentley. There are a few breeders in the back of the Practical Poultry mag. When I can find it I'll post details of any I find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...