Poorly chicken

[pdcambs]

edit by Sheila; this topic is split from another topic;

regarding condensation - this is unlikely to be a problem with the BeeHaus as it has a fully open mesh floor which aids hive ventilation. Over wintering on open mesh floors is becoming common place in the UK.

 

As long as any poly hive has vents in the roof and bees aren't cramped into one box in the heat of the summer, they are fine.

 

90% of hives in scandinavian countries are Polyhives with no problems

 

regards

 

Steve

 

 

How does having a fully open mesh floor affect Apiguard treatments, surely the sublimated Apiguard will just sink down out of the hive body along with its efficacy?

 

I have had exactly this problem with Dartingtons, such that I don't treat my Dartingtons with Apiguard, preferring Oxalic for efficacy with that hive design. (Although I don't personally like Oxalic as a treatment)

 

 

 

Peter

[v8landy]

Peter

 

Its the same with any hive that has an open mesh floor. The omlet has a very loose fitting floor for mite counting.

[Guest]

I have had exactly this problem with Dartingtons

 

Being that they are of wood construction, that is no problem at all. You just simply add a runner inside the lower edges of the brood box and slide in a reasonably close-fitting board (instead of the landing board) running the full length of the hive. Just a bit more tack to store (for intermittent use).

 

I also slid in a board to partially close off the OMF in the really cold and snowy weather last winter - simply to /reduce/stop any draughts - but it was probably not really needed.

 

Regards, RAB

[pdcambs]

The omlet has a very loose fitting floor for mite counting.

 

So not very good for Apiguard treatment then?

[pdcambs]

I have had exactly this problem with Dartingtons

 

Being that they are of wood construction, that is no problem at all. You just simply add a runner inside the lower edges of the brood box and slide in a reasonably close-fitting board (instead of the landing board) running the full length of the hive. Just a bit more tack to store (for intermittent use).

 

I also slid in a board to partially close off the OMF in the really cold and snowy weather last winter - simply to /reduce/stop any draughts - but it was probably not really needed.

 

Regards, RAB

 

 

All my home made national mesh floors are tight fitting, the Dartington came with a plastic tray that hung off 4 screws; don't feel like playing DIY with a Dartington full of bees getting ready for the winter, and as there are other treatments it's really not an issue for me. However, having seen photo's of Apiguard in someone’s Beehaus I'm left wondering about the efficacy of their Varroa treatment if the Beehaus solid floor is only loosely fitting; cant go nailing runners onto the Beehaus if it suffers the same design flaws the Dartington has.

[v8landy]

However, having seen photo's of Apiguard in someone’s Beehaus I'm left wondering about the efficacy of their Varroa treatment if the Beehaus solid floor is only loosely fitting; .

 

Firstly you understand your hive colony and assess that there is a low mite count and weigh this up agaist the lower potential of apigurad V loose floor.

 

 

Quote from the Apiguard web site states it works in 2 ways, 1 is vapour (sublimation) but that is only effective for a couple of days, the remaining effectiveness is through physical contact. So the fact that the beehaus has a loose floor is irrilevant.

 

Sublimation: During the first few days, vapour plus solvent is slowly given off. Unlike some other formulations, or with raw crystals, this does not disturb the bees. The concentration of the thymol vapour from the gel gradually increases to a set level.

 

 

Contact: Worker bees climb into the APIGUARD tray and begin to remove the gel, as a hive cleaning behaviour. The gel adheres to the bees' body hairs and as the bees run through the hive they distribute the product to the colony. The gel that the worker is carrying is eventually thrown out through the hive entrance but the trail it leaves behind on its journey through the brood nest remains until it too in cleaned

 

 

You then re access and treat with Oxalic acid later in the year if needed.

 

 

Its Simple Peter!

[pdcambs]

However, having seen photo's of Apiguard in someone’s Beehaus I'm left wondering about the efficacy of their Varroa treatment if the Beehaus solid floor is only loosely fitting; .

 

Firstly you understand your hive colony and assess that there is a low mite count and weigh this up agaist the lower potential of apigurad V loose floor.

 

You then re access and treat with Oxalic acid later in the year if needed.

 

1 - Varroacides

There are three main chemical treatments for varroa which are easy to apply and can have high success rates of eliminating 95% of mites. They are Apistan, Bayvarol and Apiguard. Apistan and Bayvarol are plastic strips that you hang on the frames between brood comb, Apiguard is a slow release gel that you place on the top of the frames and it works by evaporation as well as contact and the bees eating it. Good practice is to alternate your treatments, this helps reduce the resistance that the mites build up to any one particular chemical.

 

http://www.omlet.co.uk/guide/guide.php?view=Bees&cat=Bee%20Health&sub=varroa

 

Its Simple Peter!

 

I think you may be missing my point.

 

I've not seen the finer detail of the underneath of a Beehaus myself, so I raise these possible issues in light of comments Beehaus owners have made that the inspection tray beneath the mesh floor in the Beehaus is loosely fitting and in response to seeing photo's of Apiguard applications posted here, as Beehaus owners are seemingly relying on Apiguard when there may be a possible issue of their hive's design adversely affecting the treatment. As you may know, even when using solid floors in conventional hives it is advisable to deploy entrance reducers to maximize efficacy of the treatment.

 

You now mention Oxalic, but Omlet don't in what seems to be their rather dated advice, so without raising this subject anyone following Omelets’ advice and treating with Apiguard might be under an illusion any Varroa population is duly treated.

 

So, the three treatments you reference above are not so simple if ... 1. your bees are resistant to Apistan and Bayverol (most bee inspectors are no longer doing resistance tests but are assuming resistance and advising against relying on Apistan and Bayverol as effective Varroa controls)..... or 2. you are applying Apiguard without a tight fitting mesh floor closer, which may dramatically reduce the treatments efficacy... and 3. you are also relying on treatments not listed by Omlet (Is Oxalic even a legal treatment, or simply a hive cleanser to be used when no bees are present?)

 

I know Omlet wish to market their Beehaus as the simple and easy answer to keeping bees, but you may not have bees for very long if you just follow Omelets’ advice and then sit on your laurels assuming you've done the right thing (not that I'm tarring anybody here with that brush)

 

As always, I'm quite happy to be proved wrong, but I don't see what’s to be gained by not asking these questions. Especially as now that we know the Beehaus is based on the Dartington, and the only advice in improving the Dartingtons suitability for Apiguard is, to paraphrase, "nailing a few extra bits on"; which hardly translates as practical advice to Beehaus owners.

 

 

 

Peter

[pdcambs]

From the manufacturers website's FAQ's....

 

20. Q: Can I use Apiguard with open mesh floors?

A: Thymol vapours are heavier than air and with an open floor much of the value

of the treatment may be lost. We advise to close up open mesh floors during the

Apiguard treatment and open them again afterwards, but this is a matter of choice. Do

not close up hive entrances during treatment.

 

 

I would conjecture that the choice they refer to is:….. close floors for an effective treatment, or ….leave floors open for less efficacy as long as you still buy their product! (But then I'm a bit cynical of corporate responsibility!)

[v8landy]

 

Contact: Worker bees climb into the APIGUARD tray and begin to remove the gel, as a hive cleaning behaviour. The gel adheres to the bees' body hairs and as the bees run through the hive they distribute the product to the colony. The gel that the worker is carrying is eventually thrown out through the hive entrance but the trail it leaves behind on its journey through the brood nest remains until it too in cleaned

 

The reason the makers offer a choice is because MOST of the work is done via CONTACT to the bees, not the vapours.

 

 

 

I think you last statement sums up your views!

 

But then I'm a bit cynical of corporate responsibility!

[pdcambs]

 

 

The reason the makers offer a choice is because MOST of the work is done via CONTACT to the bees, not the vapours.

 

 

 

 

With respect, is that your personal view of how Apiguard "works" or can you point to a reference (other than Omlet) to support your assertion it's contact NOT vapors that are more important.

 

I've provided a source from Vita's own FAQs that indicate mesh floors do have some baring in the matter, which would seem to contradict your view, so how about addressing the issue rather than the person raising it.

[pdcambs]

Another reference for you....

 

http://www.apimondia.org/apiacta/articles/2003/trouiller_1.pdf

 

ABSTRACT

 

APIGUARD is a new treatment based on natural ingredients against varroosis. It is a slow release gel containing Thymol as active ingredient. The role of the gel is to regulate the release of Thymol vapors in the hive. The gel can be used in a wide range of external temperature, and especially in hot condition which generally is not adapted to Thymol based products.

 

 

No mention of contact there. I suspect you might be confusing the movement of the gel as a contributing factor in it's sublimation, with it's movement as the means of action, clearly to my mind it is the vapor that affects varroa, not the means by which it is delivered. The issue that I was attempting to address is, will the vapor still work as it drains out of the ill fitting mesh floor, it being heavier than air?

[Sheilaz]

Er, excuse my interrupting; I've split this section from another topic as it seems to have taken on a life of it's own.

Please may we share information in an encouraging way. If anyone feels that Omlet the company need to know something about their product, please contact them. The forum is for friendly discussion, advising & learning, not challenging or point scoring. This is a general point, and if you browse the chicken section you'll see what I mean.

 

There is some wonderful information here so, er, carry on gentlemen....

[pdcambs]

Thank you to the moderators for moving this thread into its own topic, I think we were getting a little off track in the other thread; and this topic warrants its own discussion.

 

 

Just for the sake of clarity: I think there may have been a little confusion caused by my replying to a post that was heavily edited while I was writing my reply, such that one major quote from Omlet had been replaced by another quote from Apiguard with respect to advised treatments and application. I don't think it made a vast impact on the discussion, but impacts enough on several posts to deserve pointing out for the sake of clarity. Of course these things do happen occasionally and I'm not implying anything other than an innocent miss timing of events.

[v8landy]

A posting from the vita Europe site

 

8. Q: The first dose is supposed to be left on for 2 weeks but I’ve noticed that the

gel disappears after only a few days; do I need to put on another dose straight

away?

A: No, the speed at which the gel disappears depends on the temperature and on

the behaviour of the individual colony. It can take from 2 to 10 days to be removed

from the tray/dosing tray. The gel will reduce as vapour is given off and as the bees

detect the “foreign material” they try to remove it. At high temperatures the vapours

are stronger. The bees will find the gel and try to clean it up quickly. Strong colonies

generally work faster than smaller or weaker ones. At lower temperatures, the gel

sublimes more slowly. It is not detected as readily by the workers and they do not

remove it as quickly.

Even if the gel seems to have disappeared after only a few days there is no

need to apply a second treatment until 2 weeks have passed. The thymol, although not

in the tray, is active throughout the colony during this time, having been carried

around by the housecleaning bees.

 

So the summary is

 

The thymol, although not

in the tray, is active throughout the colony during this time, having been carried

around by the housecleaning bees.

 

http://www.vita-europe.com/

[pdcambs]

Oh OK already, if you refuse to except that it is the vapour that effects the Varroa and that an open mesh floor will cause the vapour to drop out of the hive so reducing efficacy, and seem stuck on the idea that the movement of the gel is the all important factor that affects the Varroa and the vapour is nothing to do with the efficacy, I don't see the point of continuing.

 

I'll leave it to others to decide which side of the discussion makes more sense, and simply conclude that if you have Beehaus and are treating with Apiguard, do whatever you can to ensure your mesh floor is as closed as you can make it, ducktape might come in handy I guess.

[pdcambs]

Quote from the Apiguard web site states it works in 2 ways, 1 is vapour (sublimation) but that is only effective for a couple of days, the remaining effectiveness is through physical contact. So the fact that the beehaus has a loose floor is irrilevant.

 

 

Having reread the thread, the above statement appears to be incorrect and based on a misunderstanding on how Apiguard works.

 

Sublimation is initially slow, speeding up as the gel is dispersed, NOT stopping as is being suggested here. It is the Thymol vapour that affects the Varroa, the gel is purely a delivery method and has no effect on the Varroa at all. What I have tried to draw attention to in this thread is will the Beehaus mesh floor closer fit so poorly as to affect efficacy.

[Melbourne12]

I raised this concern with our local BKA, and asked whether I should change the OMF for a solid one temporarily during Apiguard treatment.

 

The consensus was to leave the open mesh floor, but to put a strip of sponge in the gap between the mesh floor and the tray beneath. I suppose this is a compromise between making the floor airtight and leaving a big gap through which the thymol vapour would escape. I seems to work perfectly well, so having done that, I wouldn't worry too much about a loosely fitting tray.

[v8landy]

Quote from the Apiguard web site states it works in 2 ways, 1 is vapour (sublimation) but that is only effective for a couple of days, the remaining effectiveness is through physical contact. So the fact that the beehaus has a loose floor is irrilevant.

 

 

Having reread the thread, the above statement appears to be incorrect and based on a misunderstanding on how Apiguard works.

 

Sublimation is initially slow, speeding up as the gel is dispersed, NOT stopping as is being suggested here. It is the Thymol vapour that affects the Varroa, the gel is purely a delivery method and has no effect on the Varroa at all. What I have tried to draw attention to in this thread is will the Beehaus mesh floor closer fit so poorly as to affect efficacy.

 

 

There is no miss understanding from my part on how it works. I am very clear that the thymol is the active and the gel is the carrier.

 

But as I keep saying, and referring to the MAKERS site. It works in 2 ways. Sublimation (vapours) and the physical contact action of the bees moving it through the hive.

 

Yes the floor is loose fitting, but as the vapours fall they will have an effect.

 

But as the MAKERS state sublimation is only effective a few days (I do not say stopped), due to the gel (carrier) becoming ineffective, and hence CONTACT takes over as the carrier of the THYMOL to the bees.

[pdcambs]

 

There is no miss understanding from my part on how it works. I am very clear that the thymol is the active and the gel is the carrier.

 

But as I keep saying, and referring to the MAKERS site. It works in 2 ways. Sublimation (vapours) and the physical contact action of the bees moving it through the hive.

 

Yes the floor is loose fitting, but as the vapours fall they will have an effect.

 

But as the MAKERS state sublimation is only effective a few days (I do not say stopped), due to the gel (carrier) becoming ineffective, and hence CONTACT takes over as the carrier of the THYMOL to the bees.

 

 

Where does it say "the gel becomes ineffective after two days"? Initial sublimation is slow as the only sublimation happening is from the surface area of the gel exposed in the opened container, as the gel gets moved about the sublimation increases as the surface area of the gel increases and so the Thymol in the hive atmosphere increases. But it is the amount of Thymol in the atmosphere within the hive that is important, not how it gets there.

 

Saying its only direct contact that's important after a limited amount of initial sublimation occurs and that efficacy will not be reduced with an open mesh floor as the Thymol will still be effective on it's way down and out the bottom of the hive is, IMHO, simply wrong! Why else does the Apiguard website stress that open mesh floors should be closed, and why do so many research papers refer to the effects of Thymol vapour in treating Varroa?

 

If you are so sure that the Varroa mites are not affected by Thymol vapour but are adversely affected by direct contact with Thymol in some way, maybe you'll grace us with an explanation of the delivery mechanics as you understand them? I understand that Thymol in it's gaseous form affects the mites respiratory system, so how do you think it works?

[v8landy]

I am just quoting the makers site.

 

It works for me, and many others.

[Egluntyne]

Could we please keep this debate factual and pleasant and leave out the derisory comments.

 

By all means debate differing approaches and beliefs, but in the respectful manner which we encourage on this forum.

 

Thank you.

[OXFORDBEE]

Apiguard is funny stuff and understanding how it works is not helped by the manufacturers who claim it works in different ways!

 

To avoid a verbose reply on the way this product works here is a link:

 

http://www.vita-europe.com/en/APIGUARD%20FAQs%202009.pdf

 

If anyone has any confusion on how this product works I am more than happy to help.

 

I have used this product on 100's of hives and know its limitations/effects.

[v8landy]

Thanks Oxofrd for finding that PDF. I quoted from it a few posts back, refering to Number 8 of the FAQ, but I could not get a pdf link like you did. Thanks

 

As I have stated several times! I am only refering to the makers notes!

 

Apiguard works well for me, but this is only one part of a program of events for varoa managment.

[OXFORDBEE]

For further info on varroa this is quite good:

 

http://www.alp.admin.ch/themen/00502/00515/00516/index.html?lang=en&download=M3wBPgDB/8ull6Du36WenojQ1NTTjaXZnqWfVp3Uhmfhnapmmc7Zi6rZnqCkkIN0fH6AbKbXrZ6lhuDZz8mMps2gpKfo

 

As is this!

 

http://www.alp.admin.ch/themen/00502/00515/00523/index.html?lang=en

 

Any questions give me a shout!

[Melbourne12]

I've had a go at searching the literature for acaricidal activity mechanisms, and as far as I can see it's not well understood. It MAY be connected with interference with the mites' detection of certain vapours, which guide them to infest the uncapped cellls. But that's by no means certain.

 

These papers, which study delivery mechanisms of the acaricide are interesting:

 

http://medwelljournals.com/fulltext/java/2009/1004-1009.pdf

 

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1603/0022-0493%282000%29093%5B0189%3ALEOMTC%5D2.0.CO%3B2

 

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14186495

 

Quote from the second one: "Estimated V. jacobsoni LD50 values were significantly lower for complete exposure applications of thymol and Magic3, suggesting that both vapor and topical exposure influenced mite mortality ... " (my emphasis).

 

So the clever thing about Apiguard is that it uses both vapour and topical delivery, thus increasing the number of mites killed.