AnnieP Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 Hello all you legalees out there! Here is a poser for you. I have a friend who who occupies a flat, in a very large house which is owned by her elderly mother (who lives in another flat on the ground floor). She doesn't pay any rent, as it is "the family home" (her mother inherited it from her parents in turn), and has lived there for the past 6 years to quietly keep an eye on her mother. Her mother has decided she wants to "sell up" but has no idea of how things work these days, and has approached estate agents who are biting at her arm to market it. Of course, she thinks it is wonderful and is ready to sign on the dotted line, but my friend is incredibly worried that she is being taken for a complete ride by the estate agent, not to mention the certainty that her mother is actually not up to what it takes to move out anyway. She is a fiercely independant lady however, and will not entertain my friend "interfering" in any way. In discussion with her over this problem we inevitably turned to the idea of trying to prove her mother was not mentally sound enough to act for herself, (and she is as mad as a box of frogs, truly), however, my friend really does not want to go down this route if she can avoid it. One idea we stumbled upon, was, could she be classed as a sitting tenant, and if so, then I believe, technically, could she refuse to allow access, change locks etc and refuse to move out, if her mother DID proceed despite her kind advice to be cautious adn let her help? I have searched theinternet, but the fact that she is related, that her mother lives in the house too and that she pays no rent, makes it difficult to research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlottechicken Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 I have no specialist knowledge I'm afraid, but is your friend's flat separate from the rest of the house, with it's own front door and all that? I think it makes a difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnnieP Posted March 11, 2010 Author Share Posted March 11, 2010 Thanks for that thought Charlotte.. she shares a front entrance with her mother, whose front door is to the left, just inside the entrance, but she has to go up a flight of stairs, at the top of which, is her own locked front door. So, in effect, a communal front entrance for her and her mother. Other residents ( two other rented flats) have entrances around the side and back of the house. My friend has just rung and told me that her mother has served notice to the two other residents saying she will not be renewing their tennancies in June...... She IS determined! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 Are there any other family members who can intervene? your friend will look like she is being bitter by 'interfering' as she has a personal interest to stay in the house rather than being forced to find somewhere else to live and pay rent! maybe she is a bit close to the situation to be properly objective (not a direct criticism of her just saying we would all get a bit worried if our home is threatened...) What is her mothers plan? has she a reasonable idea of what she will do regarding alternative accomodation? this will give an idea of whether she has thought it through or not - If the mum has a logical thought process eg: 'I want to sell up and buy a house in X town nearer to the shops' I want a house with no stairs' etc that would give an idea to her state of mind, as you say, the house is large so presumably is costly to run and maintain If her state of mind is good then no one will buy the fact that she hasnt thought it through, being mad as a box of frogs is not a barrier to house sale, my diagnosed mentally ill mother has moved several times with no problems at all If your friend thinks the estate agent is being underhand (ie is trying to make her market the house for a low price so he can sell to a developer quickly or is making her promises he wont be able to keep) she can report them to the ombudsman (bound to be one..) Perhaps a couple more estate agents quotes would be a good idea to put things in to perspective for the mum, an independant valuation could be obtained if necessary to bring the mum back down to earth with a bump! A big house split in to flats would appeal to a landlord or developer both of which are not buying much in the current market.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlottechicken Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 I would've thought the fact that the flat is a separate unit within the house would give your friend more clout, and am sure the old sitting tenants used to have a lot more rights than today's short term lets. However, it might be prudent to ask a question on a tenancy based website. I just found this one and they have a Q&A section and a forum. Good luck, I hope you find some help in favour of your friend, it sounds like a tricky situation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovychook Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 I haven't any advise I'm afraid, but just wanted to say that I really feel for your friend. What an awful position to be in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnnieP Posted March 11, 2010 Author Share Posted March 11, 2010 Thanks all. Unfortunately she is the only relative: Her mother is very formidable and has no friends either! Far too scary! She (my friend) is an only child and I can't believe how loyal she is to her mother, when all she gets is abuse. I know parents can be tricky in their old age, but I would have floated her off, tied to a raft, down a very fast moving rapid by now... If this helps put it into context, the estate agent says he is going to market the house at 3.5 million..... We are talking a LOT of money, but others in the same street, and in fact, not so large, sell for 6 or seven! I guess she is going to have to try to establish what she exactly is, legally, bearing in mind it is her mother's house, she still lives there, she doesn't pay rent, has a seperate front door etc. Is she a tenant, lodger, etc. Then she can take it from there. She thinks her mother would be much better served by keeping the house, continuing to rent out the flats, let her administer it all, and just rent a more suitable home for herself, without the need to pay the solicitors, estate agents, stamp duties etc. The poor woman is in her upper 80's and not in great health. Its so sad, she is desperate for her mother to get somewhere easier to look after, is looking forward to not having to intervene when her mother upsets the tenants, but just cannot see how she can persuade her mother that she needs to get impartial advice over the best possible way to make the most out of her assets and not be taken in by profit hungry estate agents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadietoo Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 It seems to me that Mum could take an equity release guaranteed on the property and buy herself a more suitable property...bungalow/ warden assisted flat with that The rents from the other property would pay most of the outgoings for both properties and I would have thought that Mum could then live out her days worry free and everyone is happy. If Mum's state of mind is in question then your friend might find some useful information on the website for the public guardianship office (www.publicguardian.gov.uk) who have some very good leaflets etc written in fairly plain English dealing with Lasting Powers of Attorney which it sounds like should be something Mum should be encouraged to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Her mum does need to get impartial advice you are correct I dont see how your friend who has an interest in keeping a roof over her head and not having to rent in an obviously expensive area can be a great deal more objective than the estate agent I dont think that becoming a sitting tennent is the answer, its only going to cause upset Although she doesnt pay rent if your friend can prove (has receipts or bank records) to prove that she contributes to the upkeep of the house she may have more of a say however if she has simply been living rent free she probably needs to appreciate her good fortune up till now and start to use some of the savings (that she must have made by living rent free) to pay for the deposit on her own home or rented home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pollyowens Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Several respondees have admitted no knowledge in this tricky area of the law and several have gone on to conjecture on the subject. It is absolutely vital that she consults either a solicitor or a barrister who is a specialist in the field, and does it as a matter of urgency, before the mother signs any more documents. If finances are an issue, she should consult the Citizens' Advice Bureau in the first instance. Good Luck. I hope she can resolve it for all parties. Pauline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickenanne Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Pollyowens, I think that's good advice. However from a completely non-legal point of view, as the house belongs to your firends mother, morally she should be free to do what she likes with it - your firends sitting tennancy (or not!) should IMO be left aside - her mothers' ability to make decisions is more morally important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlottechicken Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Several respondees have admitted no knowledge in this tricky area of the law and several have gone on to conjecture on the subject. And the OP has been pointed in the direction of two specialist websites to obtain further information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pollyowens Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Note I said 'several' and not 'all'. However, I still believe that a specialist lawyer is the safest bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnnieP Posted March 12, 2010 Author Share Posted March 12, 2010 Thanks everybody for your advice AND opinions. If I wasn't interested in them, I wouldn't have posted the topic, so once again, I am grateful. My friend is seeking legal advice, as it is far too complicated for her to wade through. Just for the record, she owns her own home, she sub lets it out so that she can live near to her mother to keep an eye on her, so money is NOT an issue, neither will she be homeless if, and when, her mother does sell, so these are not motivating factors in her "wanting" to stay.. far from it. She would love nothing dearer than to have her mother ensconced safely away somewhere so she can get on with her life and not worry about the old dear wandering along the main road in her nightie! Her concern was how to make sure that her mother gets the best deal/does the best thing to make the most out of her assets. I am not sure selling up at the moment is the best option, and neither is my friend, but she is stumped as to how to handle it, in the light of her mother never listening to her and being bloody minded about selling because the "nice estate agents" are being SO helpful!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falkor Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Just mentioned this to my OH who is IFA and he said best bet is to go and get advice - both daughter and mum due to IHT, tax etc. Get another couple of estate agents in to give an average value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickenanne Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 Actually, the inheritance tax aspect could be vital to who actually sees the proceeds (I'm guessing that your friends mother won't manage to spend several million in only a few years!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
