Cate in NZ Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 I believe that you can only shield children so far, they are naturally inquistive, and that they should be given the facts, in a gentle, sensitive way, with the opportunity to ask a million questions if need be and then allowed to find their own place. I helped nurse my Dad when he was terminally ill, because of circumstances that meant my then 17 month old son and I moved in with him & mum (I was on maternity leave at the time, so was able to move 200 miles away for that time, hubby still had to work & stayed here). Dad couldn't cope with a boisterous toddler for too long, and I didn't want Seb exposed to his pain, but it was fantastic to watch them hugging and chatting to each other , Seb realised grandpa was poorly and was very gentle, and Dad got a lot of pleasure from bonding with him. Very precious times. He was then informed when grandpa died, but didn't really comprehend the concept and has not had nightmares or anything else since. Their grandad died more abruptly 4 years ago, the children loved him dearly and both requested to see him in the funeral home. I did hesitate, but better the reality than the imagination. So I took them, allowing them to set the pace and back out at any time. They were about 7 & 9 then. They were surprised that he looked "just like Grandad!", but commented on him looking paler than usual, and feeling cold. Again, no nightmares, just gentle acceptance, but we gave them lots of space and support. We will all inevitably have different opinions, and I genuinely don't think that there's a right or wrong, but I do believe that we transmit our own anxieties onto children. Whilst children are little they are so inquisitive and so interested and accepting that I think they can cope with a lot more than we think that they can, as long as they are given explanations, and allowed to set the pace. That may be the issue with the lamb slaughter, if the child involved didn't understand what was happening or given an exit route if needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Ok. I respect all of your opinions and thank you for your comments. It's all got a bit serious now though! Shall we halt this thread and move on to more cheerful subjects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lesley Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 We have to have at least one serious topic without mention of 'you know whats' in it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinnamon Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 But to extend the argument a little further, does that mean we would let young children watch a person die? Well, we don't kill people to eat them,do we? I just think that if we eat something then we should know how it got to be on our plates & in our tummies. We lost my sister in Law last year to cancer & she was 35. We did not expose the girls to her final hours just as much out of respect for her as protecting the children. Nor are we exposing them to my Mother who suffered severe brain damage last summer & can now no longer feed herself or recognise anyone. Animals & people are two very different entities & arguments. But, I agree that this has all got a bit serious, & we need to lighten up a bit. I have enjoyed this thread very much & really enjoyed reading everyones opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 But to extend the argument a little further, does that mean we would let young children watch a person die? Well, we don't kill people to eat them,do we? I can't quite believe you said that. Obviously not, no. I was meaning that there is still a trauma involved. Anyhow, I'm dropping this now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffie Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 I'll be the first to take this off topic and say 'bottom!' Sorry Nice discussion and everyone had something valid to share and thank you. Bx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lesley Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 I was waiting for Clare to join in and lower the tone but she was too busy running around with policemen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinnamon Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 But to extend the argument a little further, does that mean we would let young children watch a person die? Well, we don't kill people to eat them,do we? I can't quite believe you said that. Obviously not, no. I was meaning that there is still a trauma involved. Anyhow, I'm dropping this now. I just wanted to say that I actually meant that comment in a much more light hearted way than it came across, & forgot to put a at the end of the sentence. I blame this fully on a large glass of red on an empty stomach! Apologies if it offended in any way,as this was not my intention. I was trying to get across a sense of emotional detachement that is not possible if you see a loved one (or even a stranger) suffering or dying. As Jane said, good discussion - I enjoyed it - & thanks for bringing it up in the first place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 I was waiting for Clare to join in and lower the tone but she was too busy running around with policemen Shame they weren't firemen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffie Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Hey don't worry Sarah!! Bx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 There was an article in the Mail too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motherhen Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 I was concerned about the welfare and slaughtering of the animals providing my meat long before farm animal welfare became generally acknowledged. I'm sure this comes from having grown up surrounded by animals and being fully aware of the full cycle of life, and that farm animals are not just brainless bits of meat on legs. In my personal opinion, what Lesley and her family are doing is very healthy and I think will be of benefit to her children. Although because they have grown up in a society that generally doesn't link cling film wrapped pieces of meat to living animals, I think she is wise to be cautious about the children viewing the first slaughter when she learns how to do it. Children, IMHO, regard as normal and natural, whatever they have grown up with. So I am sure none of them were traumatised by a normal sheep slaughter on their farm. Much less stressful for the sheep than transported to an abbatoir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffie Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Apparently the IBA have had loads of complaints about this episode... The public like Jamie when he is warm and fluffy not talking about serious issues and raising awareness about the welfare of animals ( but it would be a minority) what we saw was natural unlike mass animal 'processing'. I wasn't keen on the halal process on 30 days last night...If anyone saw that. Bx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lesley Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 To put the complaints into context - Ch4 received 46 complaints compared with the BBC receiving 350 re. the swearing before the watershed during Live8. Also, the EU directive states that the animal should be pre-stunned which the lamb obviously wasn't. Apparently, Italians are allowed to kill meat on the farm as long as it is for their own personal consumption - but it should be stunned first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Steed Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 But to extend the argument a little further, does that mean we would let young children watch a person die? We lost my sister in Law last year to cancer & she was 35. We did not expose the girls to her final hours just as much out of respect for her as protecting the children. Nor are we exposing them to my Mother who suffered severe brain damage last summer & can now no longer feed herself or recognise anyone. Sorry to bring this back to people again, but have just caught up with this thread. 6 years ago, my husband died from a brain haemorrhage in the space of 24 hours. My Vicky was just turning 7 and I made the decision to bring her into the ITU so that she could see her Dad before the final decision to switch the ventilator off was made. I made that decision because I'm a paediatric nurse and a health visitor, and I strongly believe that children need to see some things to understand them, so that their imaginations don't make up things for them. I was straight with her that I didn't think he was going to come home and I explained the machinery to her. She saw him as her Daddy, and had the opportunity to say goodbye, I have never regretted that decision, in fact I wish I had given her more time with him. Children have an amazing capacity to understand and face things without fear, as they have yet to develop adult fears and concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cate in NZ Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Liz, I've held back from adding further to this debate as I hold my hands up to being one of those who turned this to death in general, rather than animal welfare/ slaughter, and have felt mildly guilty today about adding to such a serious topic. However I just wanted to say "well said", I agree with you entirely. I worry that we are protecting our childrens innocence in one way, by protecting them from death and illness, yet on the other hand so many children play violent playstation games. Death doesn't mean switching off the machine and having to start again. Another child has been stabbed in a school today, did her attackers realise the potential consequences of such a dreadful act, or is it more of the casual violence that seems so prevalant now. Protecting childrens innocence? Take a look at some of the overtly sexual outfits little girls are being dressed in these days. I believe, so strongly, that children need to understand that all life has value, that death is inevitable and final, ideally after a good life, well lived, and that every creature should be treated with respect and dignity, at whatever stage of life. I will not willingly expose my children to violence, pain or suffering in any format, but I do hope that they can appreciate the value of life. Sorry, sorry, sorry all for getting all serious again. Off to find a lighter thread. Has Clare found any more policemen recently? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinnamon Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 This is obviously an issue that touches many people. I think it is an entirely personal decision whether we expose our children to things that we may feel are unsuitable for them to see. No-one knows a child like the parent, & where Liz feels that it was right to let her child say goodbye in that way, others may not. I must say that if it had been my Husband who was sick my decision would have been different,& I most certainly would have let them into the Hospital room to say goodbye.That is so important. But it was not their Dad, but their Auntie who was sick & she always asked for solitude & peace in her final hours. We respected that. As for my Mum, well, I cannot bear to see her in such a changed state,let alone thinking about letting my children visit. My sister is a Nurse,& she visits her regularly & copes with it really well, but I really don't want to see my Mum like that.I simply could not do it I guess that in the end we all have to make our own very personal decisions & just hope that others respect them. I'm off to find a lighter thread now too, or I might just turn to the big glass of red again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lesley Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Well said Liz, KateA and Sarah* - I know it all went slightly off-topic but these comments are valid and perhaps difficult for you to express. Thanks for your thoughts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
