Cube mk2 and WIR

[Guest]

I had really mixed feelings tonight about Jamie killing that sheep. I know what he was saying was right - that the sheep had great life, but the actual killing of it turned my stomach! It is true that those people kill what they eat and take responsibility for it. And credit to them for that. But I think that the very young Italian children being exposed to the blood and guts of it was just plain wrong. Somehow, at such a young age, it seems to be robbing them of part of their childhood. Even if I had to do something like that, I wouldn't dream of letting my kids see the aftermath.

[The Dogmother]

You horrid man Dan!

[RubyReckless]

I'm thoroughly enjoying Jamie's current series and tonight's episode was excellent. Just like Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall, the killing of the boar and the sheep demonstrated a true and admirable relationship between those people and the meat on their plate.

Meat comes from dead animals, you are never too young too learn that.

 

As a real example of how a closeness and understanding of what meat means, how many of us chicken keepers buy chicken to eat without consideration of the bird under the cling-flim?

 

I used to "mostly" buy free range chicken at the supermarket. Since keeping chooks I only ever buy organic. Organic means I can be assured that the bird was kept in optimum conditions and I am not complicit in abuse of an animal for food.

 

I felt real empathy with Jamie in both killing the sheep and his need to cook the meat produced. Good for him.

[Lesley]

I agree with RR - it's not wrong for children to learn that meat comes from dead animals.

 

The thing that annoyed me about it was, as far as I know, killing like that is not in compliance with EU rules. France is the same - the French Government enact these rules but don't enforce them. It seems Italy is the same. British farmers are forced by the Government to follow the rules and are therefore disadvantaged by having the extra cost of using abattoirs. Many of the small abattoirs closed down because they couldn't afford to comply with EU rules

 

I stand to be corrected if it is in compliance with EU rules to kill a sheep in that manner and on the farm but it does seem that they just pay lip service to the rules.

[Guest]

I agree with RR - it's not wrong for children to learn that meat comes from dead animals.

It depends on the age of the child though, doesn't it? I'm certainly not about to start teaching my three-year-old about it. And I thought the children in the program were too young to see that.

[Louise]

Death is part of life if you see what I mean and the sooner a child learns to cope with it the better whether it is the loss of a pet or a loved one so animals for meat could be a less stressful way of reinforcing that

 

I don't have a problem with animals being killed for meat I have never eaten anything I have killed but provided it was not a treasured pet I am sure I would be okay with it.

 

The thing I noticed was the colour of the meat a beautiful deep meat which showed the animal had a good free range lifestyle before it was eaten Bet it tasted glorious

[The Dogmother]

Hear, Hear Louise. Rosie is 7 and she understands the concept totally, and we try to choose our food with a conscience - well, when we can afford to!

 

BUt I wouldn't want a younger child to see something like that. I think that Rosie would be upset to see an animal killed first hand.

[Nicola H]

I agree Louise, I watched the programe with Emily who is 8 she didn't get upset just asked me lots of questions about where meat comes from which I think I answered sensitively, she found the bit were the cat was licking up the blood the worst. Like Jamie said in the programme if you don't like the thoughts of animals being killed for food you shouldn't eat them.

 

I also noticed the colour of the meat Louise you are right I bet it tasted fantastic..............

[Lesley]

We will be despatching 4 of our 'other' chickens on Saturday and have been discussing it with Lauren (7) and Jake(5) since we bought them. They understand that they are different to our layers, and have asked many questions in their own time without any prompting. They help to feed them and let them out to free range. They eventually got round to asking 'how' and we told them in a matter of fact way just what would happen.

 

Jake listened and is OK with it alland helped me to choose the four biggest and put leg rings on them, Lauren asked how chickens are killed for shops and supermarkets. We didn't make a big deal about it. She had a think and then asked if she can come and help.

 

We won't let her come this time because we will be learning ourselves from a man in the village who has been doing it all his life but next time - if she asks again - she will be allowed to come and help.

 

As Louise said, death is a part of life.

[Guest]

Hey - I should have stuck to postings on pants!

 

I'm clearly in a minority here, but I'm afraid I just don't agree! I think the innocence of childhood is something to be cherished for as long as possible. And that's something I will be doing with my children. Of course, everyone has differing opinions on these things, so I'll just have to agree to disagree with all of you!

[Louise]

Fair enough Graham we are after all different

 

I think it stems from me having lots of pets as a child from the age of 11 and small animals are very short lived so I had to cope with a variety of small furry deaths right through and while I still get upset by the death of something I find it easy to accept that is just the way it is

[Cinnamon]

I thought the show was great & the killing of the lamb was done well.

 

My Children both watched it & I am glad that they did.

Hubby hid behind a cushion,though!

 

I think it is important to remember that the whole show is about the DIFFERENCES between the Italians & ourselves, & this goes into the culture differences as well as the differences in what we eat.

 

Italian children have been exposed to this sort of thing from when they were babies, & it is a totally normal thing for them.

 

We may not like to see it, but the episode last night highlighted these cultural differences brilliantly.

[The Dogmother]

Me too Louise

[Karen & co.]

I didn't see the program, but have always told the children about where the meat comes from, (I'm a bit odd as they are not allowed beef as I'm not sure the truth about CJD is out yet, my paranoia at work) plus I'm a veggie but the rest of the family aren't so that used to prompt questions. I do cook it for the others and really don't mind them eating it, they can make their own minds up.

 

Karen x

[Cate in NZ]

I missed this programme, so can't really comment, but in principle I agree that children should see and understand where their food comes from. I think that these days food is too often removed from real experiences, and there seems to be a common misconception about food magically appearing on supermarket shelves in shrink-wrapped cellophane or plastic bags, whatever, with little or no concept of where it actually comes from. The first time I got my veggie box daughter actually complained that the carrots had mud on them, she thought they'd been dropped or mis-handled in some way I was horrified that I actually needed to suggest to her that it was simply because they hadn't been washed since coming out of the ground I know muddy carrots are a long way from slaughter, but I do think that children need to understand the concept of where the food comes from, and that slaughter is inevitable if we want to eat meat.

That said I'm not sure that I'd want little ones to witness a gruesome slaughter either, and that's where I hold back from commenting, since I missed it.

Sounds like an interesting series though, I'll try to remember to watch it next week

[Cinnamon]

I didn't find it in the least gruesome,Kate

And I am pretty squeamish

 

It was more uncomfortable to watch than sick making,& my girls (10 & 12) were fine watching it.

 

it is a great series,& I would really recommend it to anyone who loves cooking,Jamie or VW Campers

[buffie]

Just in time, I have got my internet access back!!

 

Well I watched and thought it was beautifully done, the lamb looked calm and it was not gory at all. Children that understand where meat comes from and see the truth are fortunate I feel, they will not be shocked if they understand. I am a vegetarian, apart from fish, and saw inside an abattoir as a child, by mistake I add! I was horrified. I didn't understand and to learn in this way was terrible. I helped bag the meat and was in a terrible state for ages.

 

I have just written an article for our local mag and am helping to raise awareness of traditional farming v intensive farming. I think the more honesty there is the better and the neatly packed chicken or lamb needs to have rights before slaughter. I am pro what Lesley is doing and what most of you have said but do also understand the other comments.

 

I am pro the programme for this discussion and also if it helps makes the connection between welfare and quality. That point was put across really well I felt.

 

Each to there own on this subject I guess,

 

Bx

[The Dogmother]

There has been a series of article in CS mag about a couple who have their own smallholding - they slaughter some of their animals at home to prevent any stress they may experience on the way to the abbatoir. I can't remember it clearly, or even their names. But they are doing a great job.

[Guest]

I think I am possibly being a little misunderstood on this. Let me clarify. Of course, children should eventually know where meat comes from. I do not dispute that. However, there is obviously a 'correct' age for doing this sort of thing. How old was the little girl on the program - 5 or 6? I personally felt this was too young to expose her to a pool of blood and sheep insides.

 

'Beautifully done' is certainly not how I felt about the killing. Can any form of killing be described as 'beautiful'? Calmly done, yes. I think certain parts of the scene had been cut. After all, is a lamb going to have a knife pushed into it's neck without making a fuss? Perhaps they stunned it first and that part wasn't shown in the program, or it screamed and that part wasn't shown either.

[Cinnamon]

Surely if children grew up from day 1 knowing about animals,meat & slaughter it would just be part of their lives & have a less detrimental effect than suddenly springing it upon them when the parent thinks they are old enough?

Or finding out by mistake (or seeing an abbatoir by mistake!)

 

The child on TV certainly didn't seem to be bothered by what she saw.

 

I do see your point, & very well made it is too, but that is how I see it.......

[Guest]

Surely if children grew up from day 1 knowing about animals,meat & slaughter it would just be part of their lives & have a less detrimental effect than suddenly springing it upon them when the parent thinks they are old enough?

But, as a parent, I want to protect my children from the brutality of certain parts of life until I feel they are old enough to handle it. I don't want my young kids to have nightmares about animals being killed. Yes, as has been said, death is part of life. But to extend the argument a little further, does that mean we would let young children watch a person die? If there has been a road accident and someone is lying injured in a pool of blood, do we let them see it, or do we shield them from it?

 

I thought the child on the programme (the one being held), looked very uncomfortable.

[The Dogmother]

Not fence sitting here, but I can see both sides of this one. I grew up with Italian grandparents, and they were very matter of fact about killing what you eat, and I am not the slightest squeamish - I once euthanaised a bunny that ran in front of my car, but was still alive - hated every minute fo it, but it was necessary.

 

Rosie is 7, she understands all about food and where it comes from, the food chain et al, but having said that, she is a sensitive soul and I wouldn't expect her to watch something like that.

 

Phil grew up on a farm, and they dealt with animal death first hand - his father taught him how to kill a chicken, but he would hate to have to do it.

 

AS I said earlier in this topic, I am a meateater, but try to buy with conscience. If I had the time and the money, I would source locally farmed organic meat only, but I have to cut my cloth accordingly.

[SarahJo]

I worked in a butchers , a wine bar and a Safari Park, when I was a student .. and must say, there was a bit of an animal market about all THREE .

 

I missed the programme ... BUT ..... accept life and death.

 

I wonder

But to extend the argument a little further, does that mean we would let young children watch a person die?

... does that also apply to non-bloody death .

 

Ben and Joe lost their dog .. she died in her sleep, and luckily OH made the discovery after a night shift. We told them Rugsie had gone with the angels, and they took her basket too, so she could sleep in heaven. This may have been softly softly ... but they then had to contend with numerous other people close to them, dying. The worst of these their 34 yr old uncle from a brain tumour ion Xmas day last year. Personally ... I think they handle the whole circle of life thing BETTER knowing that pets die, and animals are bred and killed for food ... they aslo appreciate that for a number of reasons, not only old people die, but they all go with the angels when the time comes.

 

sorry ... rant over. My kids are 4 and 5 yrs, and have a good healthy outlook on all aspects of death, sometimes they are reflective over it ..... but they don't get upset eating roast dinner, and then gazing at the chooks.

[SarahJo]

Sorry if I went on a bit ... if I had my choice, I too would keep sensitive things away from Ben and Joe. But, unfortunately , we have had a LOT of greif come our way ... and I suppose, even though it may be wrong .. the death of pets etc, has made it easier for the boys to accept and understand.

[Guest]

But to extend the argument a little further, does that mean we would let young children watch a person die?

... does that also apply to non-bloody death .

Of course it does. I watched my father die when I was a teenager - but I was old enough to be there and try and deal with it. It was a horrible, long, traumatic process. If I was in the final stages of terminal illness, would I want my young kids (aged 3 and 15 months) to see me die? Absolutely not.

 

As I said, I feel very strongly that children need protecting from certain aspects of life until they are emotionally mature enough to cope with it. Childhood years go by so quickly, why can't we let them have that innocence for as long as possible?