Feeding advice for bantams (one broody, one moulting)

[Martin B]

Proof of what, battery farming?

 

I think their document of 11.7 hens per sqm is some. I have no personal proof on me now, but I read it on the internet and I was told by CIWF at the Good Food Show.

[Guest]

There is a set of criteria that are laid down by the RSPCA.

 

 

i've posted a link to the guidlines which martin and I have been commenting on, namely stocking density, which was a little concerning. I haven't read the whole thing yet though but that part did worry me.

[Martin B]

that cartoon chicken barn makes me angry actually, what an insult to people's intelligence.

 

They're trying to make it look all happy and cosy.

[Egluntyne]

Handy Steamers?

 

Eh?

 

Your link took me to a page on 'Handy Steamers'

 

So it did....I've changed it now.

[Martin B]

How often are these things checked by the RSPCA?

 

Never? That's my opinion, I doubt some will be checked regually enough to ensure the practices are ensure all the time.

 

EDIT: Instead of making another post I'll add it on here.

 

I find this word interesting - 'Multi-tier'

 

Never heard of barn or free range hens which are stacked in tiers.

[Egluntyne]

How often are these things checked by the RSPCA?

 

Never? That's my opinion

 

What is your opinion based on Martin?

 

They clearly state that "all our members are re-inspected by a Freedom Food assessor once a year. In addition RSPCA Farm Livestock Officers carry out monitoring visits on a percentage of the membership each year to make sure the standards are being maintained."

[Sheilaz]

Mmmmm, I've been thinking about this. (Thanks, Martin!)

 

1. I'm pleased about the campaign for all my previous reasons.

 

2. But, it is ridiculous that this food labelling is still misleading to the average consumer, you're absolutely right Martin. "Freedom" prob.sounds as good as Freerange organic to the average person who is bombarded with meaningless claims on so many food labels.

 

It would be good to have a graded system with say "1" being freerange organic and "5" cheapo, yuk, intensive farmed.

It should be made clear where "FreedomFood" falls on this scale, say "3". It could then be shown that it was a good minimum requirement, and that "5" should be outlawed, but that "1" was the ideal.

 

3. Still pleased about 1 though.

[Martin B]

How often are these things checked by the RSPCA?

 

Never? That's my opinion

 

What is your opinion based on Martin?

 

They clearly state that "all our members are re-inspected by a Freedom Food assessor once a year. In addition RSPCA Farm Livestock Officers carry out monitoring visits on a percentage of the membership each year to make sure the standards are being maintained."

 

Actually seeing and going to farms which are supposed to be checked and clearly are not and if they have been checked then they have been bunged.

[Sheilaz]

Yes, sadly it's difficult to run a 100% eficient system of monitoring. Also, whilst some may have grievances about the RSPCA, both generally & specifically, I suggest we don't get sidetracked on that subject, although I can see why you feel cynical about the whole thing, Martin.

 

Even if the requirements & assessments were inadequate, there might be some positives!

 

If the coverage & debate ensures that significantly more than the current "less than 10%" of chickens are kept in "high welfare standards", it will have been a good thing.

[Guest]

I'm quite sceptical about the whole thing TBH after having read the guidelines for laying hens, the fact that farmers are allowed up to 11.7 hens per square metre is enough of a concern for me.

 

That's not to say they all do but how many do? And, they're acting within the guidelines so are these guidelines worth the paper they're written on, inspection or no inspection?

 

Must have a proper and thorough read of the rest of the guidelines another time, have to hit the sack, g'night!

 

Thanks for posting this Clare and thanks for making me scratch the surface Martin

 

xxxx

Edited January 3, 2008 by Guest

[Martin B]

high welfare standards.

 

 

What is high welfare though? Looking at these guidelines it looks like 11.7 hens in 1sqm is.

 

Another thing, Giving a Turkey a football in an intensive unit? Why not give them no football and a field?

[Sheilaz]

high welfare standards.

 

 

What is high welfare though? Looking at these guidelines it looks like 11.7 hens in 1sqm is.

 

Another thing, Giving a Turkey a football in an intensive unit? Why not give them no football and a field?

 

Yes, I appreciate those points, Martin. But, what about the other 90+% of birds that have less than those standards!

 

Doh, have to be up early tomorrow (today!), off to count chickens! (850 million of them!) Night, night!

[Egluntyne]

How often are these things checked by the RSPCA?

 

Never? That's my opinion

 

What is your opinion based on Martin?

 

They clearly state that "all our members are re-inspected by a Freedom Food assessor once a year. In addition RSPCA Farm Livestock Officers carry out monitoring visits on a percentage of the membership each year to make sure the standards are being maintained."

 

Actually seeing and going to farms which are supposed to be checked and clearly are not and if they have been checked then they have been bunged.

 

...Oooo er.......careful Martin!..........

[Lesley]

I have to say that I share Martin's (original) concerns.......... and I need to read more about it.

 

I wasn't overly happy with the Freedom Food label when it was first brought out. I don't think the RSPCA do enough in this field ( ) and by not doing so they appear to condone cruel intensive practises.

[Martin B]

Thanks Lesley. I did get a bit sidetracked last night. I was just so angry!

[Rhapsody]

I am intensely cynical about the RSPCA. IMHO it operates like a multi-million pound business not a charity and the 'Freedom Food' label comes across to me as an elaborate PR exercise.

The day I phoned the RSPCA for some help with a baby squirrel that had been attacked by a dog and the lady on the phone told me to "...put it in a sack and bash its filthy brains out dear.." was the day I stopped believing this 'charity' had any interest in animal welfare, unless Rolf's got the camera rolling!

I dont use their FF label as a guideline for anything its just a way of getting their sticker on the food at Tesco's.

[Couperwife]

I think a phone call to the nice little local (or national paper) might have done wonders here Rhapsody

 

 

would soon sort them out

 

cathy

x

[Louise]

Freedom food is given to operators that conform to provision of what is called the five freedoms of animal welfare set out by the Farm Animal Welfare Council and are:

 

1. Freedom from Hunger and Thirst - by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour.

 

2. Freedom from Discomfort - by providing an appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area.

 

3. Freedom from Pain, Injury or Disease - by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment.

 

4. Freedom to Express Normal Behaviour - by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal's own kind.

 

5. Freedom from Fear and Distress - by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering.

 

These are to be maintained at all times even when in transit.

 

Now to my mind these are things that should be provided anyway and certainly I feel that number 4 cannot be provided in an intesive farming (for chickens) situation but other species probably yes it can be provided intensively

 

These things are subjective and assessed but how robustly I don't know

 

I personally shy away from RSPCA campaigns I have had run ins with them in the past but each to their own

[The Dogmother]

Sorry to appear to have posted and run, but I needed to get an early night last night (to shake off this cold) and have only just picked this up again.

 

I am usually appalled at the lack of response and responsibility by the RSPCA, so was cheered (slightly) to see this in the Mail yesterday - the same article as you mentioned Sheila.

 

I agree that some effort is better than none, and as the RSPCA have a wider recognised name than most animal welfare charities, it can only do some good, however small it might be. It's all a step in the right direction, even if it isn't as far reaching as we'd like to see. I'd like to see far better consumer education myself, but there will always be the contingent who just don't care at all

 

Good for you Martin - keep your enthusiasm going, but take care with casting nasturtiums.

[Martin B]

I personally shy away from RSPCA campaigns I have had run ins with them in the past but each to their own

 

Looking at the whole booklet in depth it seems to controdict itself.

 

Spacious but can have 11.7 hens in 1sqm? Not very spacious if you ask me.

[Guest]

found this site which gives you an idea of what they mean by a tiering system

 

http://www.vencomatic.co.uk/index2.php?page=poultry

 

then click on link entitled "table egg production". Although it looks austere and clinical, it has to be better than battery cages but still not my idea of a happy hen.

 

This is taken from the RSPCA FAQ section...

 

"Are Freedom Food labelled eggs free-range?

 

Many are free-range eggs and some are barn eggs. All Freedom Food labelled eggs come from farms inspected to strict RSPCA welfare standards. Freedom Food does not allow the use of battery cages, so we can guarantee that Freedom Food labelled eggs are not produced by battery hens. Further information can be found in the RSPCA Welfare Standards for laying hens."

 

http://www.rspca.org.uk/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RSPCA/RSPCARedirect&pg=ConsumerFAQ

 

 

so, that cartoon of little white chickens in a barn with straw bales could be quite far from the reality in most cases, judging from the first link to the tiering/barn facilities.

 

Most consumers will just see the word 'freedom' and not bother to ask any further questions so I do feel it is misleading but it is a move in the right direction.

 

I'm just glad I know exactly where my eggs come from. My own back garden

[Rhapsody]

I think the FF label is a fudge, it guarantees nothing; as Louse said all the terms are subjective and self-regulating. It profiles the RSPCA as a caring organisation and allows farmers to charge more for a product which is hardly better than that which it puports to stand against.

The consumer can feel better about the animal they are eating (so buy it again) and everyone else makes money. This is just the economics of the bandwagon not welfare.

Sorry but this kind of half-a**ed nonsense enrages me, but not as much as the sleepwalkers who buy into it!! If you feel bad about eating animals have some backbone and go veggie.

[Guest]

I think the FF label is a fudge, it guarantees nothing; as Louse said all the terms are subjective and self-regulating. It profiles the RSPCA as a caring organisation and allows farmers to charge more for a product which is hardly better than that which it puports to stand against.

The consumer can feel better about the animal they are eating (so buy it again) and everyone else makes money. This is just the economics of the bandwagon not welfare.

Sorry but this kind of half-a**ed nonsense enrages me, but not as much as the sleepwalkers who buy into it!! If you feel bad about eating animals have some backbone and go veggie.

 

What do you mean by "subjective and self regulating"?. The guidelines seem pretty comprehensive and objective to me and the RSPCA inspects the producers to make sure they adhere to the guidelines. IMO, perhaps they don't go far enough but it's a start and has to be better than battery farming. I have my concerns with some of the guidelines and the way it's advertised but I don't think it's all about "the economics of the bandwagon". It has its good and bad points and I wouldn't condemn it out of hand but I would encourage people to scratch below the surface so they know exactly what it's all about.

 

I would feel bad about eating animals that haven't led a free range life so I don't eat them. I like meat and have tried to give it up in the past but found it too difficult and anyway, I like it. I'm quite happy with my conscience by making the free range (and in most cases, organic) choice.

 

A lot of our meat comes from a local organic farm who have their own abbatoir/butchery, so no stressful journies for the animals either.

 

I definitiely have a backbone, it's slightly curved and gives me jip now and again but yes, I do have one

[Rhapsody]

Poet I do like a woman with an opinion!! Ok-The FF label subjective and self-regulating because all the standards are open to a huge variety of interpretation, unenforceable by law and it's self-regulating because the RSPCA are policing their own system.

What we consider acceptable here on this forum and what is considered acceptable to an industry that exists to make money not the world a better place are wildly different things. I have had personal experience of what the RSPCA let pet and horse owners get away with, never mind a meat producer they have a financial interest in!

I'm glad you have a backbone Poet, and are prepared to put your morals and opinions above a cheap meal, anyone who does that is to be applauded.

[buffie]

This is a subject that's obviously created a lot of debate, that's good. Let's just watch it doesn't become too heated. After all every one has a right to an opinion.

 

Now kettle on and biscuit tin coming out

 

BBx