4m x 3m Omlet pen, cube, new auto door still boxed and coop light

[sheik]

All sentiment aside, I can understand foxes taking our pets - it's only natural and they have cubs to feed after all.

 

What I *can't* understand is why they've evolved to kill an entire flock. How is that helpful to them? I would have expected all the bloodthirsty foxes to die of starvation thousands of years ago, due to killing all the prey near them, leaving the wily ones who make a flock last an entire winter to survive.

 

But obviously I'm wrong.

 

So what am I missing? How does it make survival sense for a fox to waste 10 or 20 perfectly good birds, and only eat one?

 

I believe stoats and weasels etc have the same killing instinct, so there must be an advantage to behaving like that...

 

/\dam

[Egluntyne]

I expect it is the chase instinct kicking in.

[Ziggy]

This is just guess work, i am no fox or wildlife expert, but wondering if foxes kill loads to store and eat later? I do not know if they would gradually come back to pick up further dead prey after carrying the initial one away, or hope to come back later when they need more, to the scene of the carnage (that wouldn't be logical though would it... in nature other predators would have come by then)...

Its an interesting question and one I have wondered about before... I don't believe in evil in animals, they act out of instincts, so would love to read if anyone has an explanation for the extensive damage foxes do to chook flocks?

 

On the other hand, thinking of any predator, would they stop if there was further prey in an enclosed reachable area? In nature, predators catch one prey, and if that prey is part of a flock or herd, the rest usually runs off at safe distance... maybe when a fox breaks into a chooks enclosure, there is no safe distance to run to, and then the instinctive 'catch and kill' instinct doesn't turn itself off?

 

Sorry for adding so many questions and no answer to your post Sheik, I hope you don't mind, but this is really interesting stuff.

[sheik]

I expect it is the chase instinct kicking in.

 

Agreed - but it must be a helpful instinct for it still to exist. What I can't understand is *why* that is helpful.

It would seem more obvious that only killing what you need and leaving the rest for later (and also allowing the flock to repopulate) would be a more helpful trait.

 

Animals don't "think" like we do - but "stupid" behaviour means they will die out (survival of the fittest). So the fox must be being smart by doing what it does - I just can't see why at the moment...

 

/\dam (amateur naturalist )

[sheik]

Foxes don't cache their food like squirrels, leopards, crocodiles etc - as far as I know anyway. [uPDATE - I was wrong about this, see later in the thread]

 

On the other hand, thinking of any predator, would they stop if there was further prey in an enclosed reachable area? In nature, predators catch one prey, and if that prey is part of a flock or herd, the rest usually runs off at safe distance... maybe when a fox breaks into a chooks enclosure, there is no safe distance to run to, and then the instinctive 'catch and kill' instinct doesn't turn itself off?

 

I like this theory a lot, you could well have hit on the answer, nice thinking!

 

/\dam

Edited April 10, 2008 by Guest

[sheik]

...although, I unfortunately have sad experience that says they do continue to chase down chickens even outside the Eglu, over a reasonably large area .

 

i.e. they will kill until nothing else is moving in the vicinity, and only then take away a single body to eat - as far as I know anyway.

 

/\dam

[redfrock]

I might be able to help on this one.

 

When I was a teenager we a fox decimated our flock. It killed 11 out of the 12 chickens. That last chook was so traumatised that it had to be dealt with humanely. The fox did not take any of the chickens. It simply mauled them and left them behind for us to find. It was like a bloodbath and not something I shall ever forget.

 

At the time we lived in the middle of the country, surrounded by 3 fields. The local farmer was a very good friend and he advised that the foxes used flocks of chickens to train their young to kill, and that this is what had happened with us.

[Egluntyne]

I have read that * avert your eyes if squeamish* they bite the heads off and drink the blood, to regurgitate it later for their cubs.

 

Maybe this is why the killing seems random.....they are "tanking up" as one hen probably doesn't provide sufficient.

[redfrock]

I have read that ......

 

Umm you are right about the heads - I didn't actually know whether to put it in either. not sure about the other part though.

[happymouffe]

Hello, apologies - this is my first post.

 

Foxes do cache food. Their instinct is to kill what is available to them. In the artificial situation of a chicken coop, the foxes have an abundance of potential prey. Faced with this, the evolutionary advantage for the fox is to kill as many prey as it can. However, not having shopping bags, it cannot carry away more than one hen at a time, so will carry away one and cache it, burying it in the ground.

 

It will then, if it has an opportunity, come back for more. They are probably disturbed quite frequently though and so not able to keep on returning - it my not be you disturbing them, it could be a dog, a cat, a car coming near by, but all of these could potentially prevent the fox coming back to collect all of the carcases.

 

It's an old wive's tale about biting off their heads and drinking blood to regurgitate. Plenty of people study foxes and it would have been commented upon! Fox cubs eat solid food at quite a young age - why bother regurgitating blood when milk is most appropriate, has better nutrition and is easier to get at 99.99% of the time? Foxes have a wide range of food sources, mostly invertebrates, fruit and small mammals - not much opportunity for drinking of blood with its usual fare.

 

Know your chook's enemy - a good book is Urban Foxes, by Stephen Harris, a man who has spent over 20 years studying foxes. It won't make the gut-wrenching feeling you get as you come across your dead chooks any easier , but it does mean that you understand why the fox is acting as it does - not out of some evil reasons, not because it is blood crazed, just for good evolutionary reasons of trying to maximise its survival chances by caching food (Google 'red fox food cache' and you'll see plenty of evidence that they do this).

 

Sadly, the only thing to do is make the run fox-proof. Look after your lovely ladies.

[superjules]

Foxes do cache food. Their instinct is to kill what is available to them. In the artificial situation of a chicken coop, the foxes have an abundance of potential prey. Faced with this, the evolutionary advantage for the fox is to kill as many prey as it can. However, not having shopping bags, it cannot carry away more than one hen at a time, so will carry away one and cache it, burying it in the ground.

 

Welcome to the forum happymouffe!

 

From what I have heard, this is true.

 

Most predators will bite their prey either in the neck or head because it is the most efficient way of killing in order to not spoil the rest of the body.

 

They bury them with the legs uppermost for the same reason.

[Stevie]

Happymoufe is correct.

 

Foxes will if given the chance-return to place of kill and retrieve every single chook and bury them for later meals.We however normally hear the attack going on and see the familiar bushy tail running off with only one or perhaps two birds.They do attack in a frenzy though so the thrill of kill makes them carry on through the entire flock.

 

Despite me regarding the Fox as enemy no1-i do still have every respect for this formidable hunter.

[Egluntyne]

Thanks for the book recommendation.

[sheik]

All very interesting stuff, thanks to everyone that responded.

 

/\

[Egluntyne]

**Here** is an excellent article about the fox.

[hpops]

Really interesting post. When a fox killed my flock, it only left one chicken out of 6 behind. I actually found that rather than hating the fox - it actually helped me to get over it by thinking of a family of foxes with full tummies not having to risk their lives crossing roads and stuff to get food for the night. They're only doing what nature have them do. They have their own problems to deal with running away from barbaric animals who ride on horses and terorise them until they can't run anymore then slaughter them and drink their blood!!!!

 

I found this site which I thought was quite informative - did you know a group of foxes is called a skulk!! Never heard that before!!!

 

http://www.ozfoxes.com/aafoxes.htm

 

I espeically liked this bit

 

Foxes are eating my chickens - How can I discourage them?

 

At a guess, the chickens are probably pretty discouraged already!

We've had several folks ask how they can discourage foxes from eating their chickens or rabbits, short of trapping, shooting or poisoning the foxes; and we applaud such effort wholeheartedly! Unfortunately, foxes are so adaptable that there is no chemical such as FoxAway that will absolutely scare off a hungry fox.

 

The best bet is to get a dog and walk the perimeter of your property, allowing the dog to scent-mark her territory as she goes. Vary your walks to make it seem the dog has free run of the area. Done on a regular basis, this will make a fox think twice before he does his shopping in your henhouse or hutch - especially if the doghouse is conveniently nearby.

 

Finally: avoid dumping chicken (or rabbit) droppings anywhere near the breeding grounds. Anything that smells like Dinner Slept Here will entice a fox to take extra chances, especially if he has hungry young or a mate waiting at home.

 

We can't really vouch for this ourselves, but....

One ingenious rancher took leftover chicken parts and marinated them in Tabasco sauce, then left them at the edge of his property as an offering to the local foxes. After sampling this spicy repast, the foxes refused to go anywhere near his chickens, ever again.

[Egluntyne]

The info re the droppings is interesting!

[Gallina]

It's the fault of humans that foxes behave as they do.

 

In nature, they would catch the old or weak hen in a flock, and the rest would fly up into the trees.

 

We coop them all up and clip their wings, and thus give the fox the opportunity to kill the lot.

 

The fox does not intend to be wasteful when he indulges in mass slaughter, but hopes to come back for some ready meals. When next door's hens were taken, the fox buried one of them for later in our garden.

 

It is the duty of anyone who has chickens to protect them against foxes. And people who feed urban foxes should be shown the consequences of their actions.

[sheik]

Thanks, the article mentioned at http://www.wildlifeonline.me.uk/red_fox.html has lots of relevant information. eg:

 

Red Foxes cache (store) food and tend to Scatter Cache, rather than Larder Cache, uneaten food (i.e. they tend to spread their food around, rather than putting it all in a single hole). Caching is a behaviour often observed during periods of high food abundance and, in some species, can be associated with a phenomenon called “Surplus Killing”. Surplus killing, as the name suggests, is the practice of killing more than you can obviously consume at the time – a good example of this is the damage a fox can do in a chicken pen. If a fox gets into a chicken pen, it will frequently kill all accessible fowl, and appear to leave them lying around – part of the reason many livestock holders despise foxes. There have been several theories put forward to explain why foxes do this. One of the most oft cited ideas is that the fox stumbles across a bountiful food source -- in the wild predators rarely know where the next meal is coming from -- and it decides to best exploit this reserve. As such, the fox kills all the chickens and then begins the task of removing and burying them. The fox can only carry one chicken at a time, making the caching process slow. In many cases, the farmer comes out to investigate the commotion before the fox has had chance to clear the hen house.

 

You learn something every day!

 

/\dam

[sheik]

...and from the same site, this link has a wealth of theories for "Is Surplus Killing a Waste?"

 

/\dam

[mayflower]

My understanding is, the fox kills whatever is moving, them leaves the hens until the meat is rancid. This is why it looks dreadful to us....mindless killing. However, in the fox's mind, the meat will taste good when it has gone off.

[twix]

it's just not a natural scenario..

hunting wild animals is difficult. Naturally they probably would not be able to kill enough for any to be left to waste.

i wonder what the world record for a fox coop slaughter is.. anyone?

[Lesley]

It's the fault of humans that foxes behave as they do.

 

In nature, they would catch the old or weak hen in a flock, and the rest would fly up into the trees.

 

We coop them all up and clip their wings, and thus give the fox the opportunity to kill the lot.

 

The fox does not intend to be wasteful when he indulges in mass slaughter, but hopes to come back for some ready meals. When next door's hens were taken, the fox buried one of them for later in our garden.

 

It is the duty of anyone who has chickens to protect them against foxes. And people who feed urban foxes should be shown the consequences of their actions.

 

Just what I came to say Gallina - if left, the fox would come back for the rest.

 

Perhaps as more hens are kept in urban areas, people will- sadly - see the consequences of feeding foxes.

[Egluntyne]

I have a near neighbour who buys Asda 2 for a fiver chickens and leaves them on her patio for the fox.

 

At the very least she should be leaving M&S or farmers market chickens.

 

 

On the plus side...whilst he has access to fast food, maybe he won't come sniffing around my girls.