Poorly chicken

[beesontoast]

Omlet might be a good option to work with/ get help with in promoting a new organisation???

 

They are not likely to be interested in any organization unless it promotes their hive, which is inextricably tied to frame/foundation/medication style beekeeping, which is a huge part of the problem, IMO.

[TheChookKeeper]

This whole argument is one that entraps new beekeepers into the mindset of 'now I have spent a load of money on hives and equipment, I had better start selling honey to get some of it back'.

 

Hoorah! Someone talking sense!

 

I've been reading comments from both sides on the BeeHaus ever since it's launch last year. I ordered one a little while ago.

 

I am not rolling in money, if only I was (!), and yes, £500 is a LOT of money (closer to £600 to be honest), but as "beesontoast" points out, why should everyone be so obsessed by how quickly you'll recoup the money spent on your hive? I, frankly, couldn't care two hoots how quickly, or indeed even IF it recoups the money - as long as I enjoy myself being a beekeeper, it has served it's purpose.

 

I could have bought a nasty wooden chicken house (and lets be honest, wooden chicken houses ARE skanky - there's no two ways about it!), but I didn't WANT a skanky wooden one - I wanted a bright lime green plastic one, that everyone would be interested by, and that I would enjoy using. Rather than the skanky wooden duck house I have, which I curse on a daily basis, despite it costing only £100 less than the Eglu, being half it's age, and now in need of replacement.

 

I compared the costs of buying the BeeHaus with the cost of buying 2x WBC's, a suit, and all the tools I would need (not extractors etc.). The comparison really wasn't as wide as people seem to suggest.

Why 2 WBC's? Again - this is going in my garden - which I take pride in - I want something that looks nice... nationals do NOT fit that bill. Why 2? Because the BeeHaus is effectively 2 hives. Simple.

 

 

As I say - I really couldn't give a monkeys if my bees recoup the cost of the beehaus (but be honest, they will - and it will be in plenty of time before it needs replacement - just the same as a wooden hive). In just the same way that I'm not bothered about the chooks taking about the next 25 years to repay their Eglu - I don't care - it looks nice, I like it and the bees will like it (as much as they like ANYTHING they live in/on).

 

 

Goodness - I've gone all red with excitement! I'll go away and calm down! That lot has been building up inside for about the last 3 months!

[Daphne]

Are you excited I hadn't really noticed

 

I, for one, am pleased you're so pleased

 

It'll be great to hear how you get on; the more reports from real life the better. Have you done a course/kept bees before? Its always nice to welcome somebody else to this part of the board. We need a blend of experience and inexperience and a bit of exuberance (sp?) won't go amiss

[Guest]

Because the BeeHaus is effectively 2 hives. Simple.

 

Just not true. But you will find out.

 

Regards, RAB

Edited April 7, 2010 by Guest

[TheChookKeeper]

Have you done a course/kept bees before?

 

No, never kept bees before - my dad did while I was growing up - and they're going to live in his garden... so he'll be on hand! (whether he likes it or not!)

 

I'm on a course at the moment... and have read more books than I care to mention... I've had a lot of time to kill, having decided to keep bees around August last year!

 

 

Just not true. But you will find out.

Can you explain why? Obviously it isn't 2 seperate hives... as it's all in one box - but as I understand it, the divider board effectively makes it into two hives. Is this not the case?

 

Whilst I'm not terribly bothered whether the bees recoup the money I spend on their house - I do rather expect the house to be up to the job

[Guest]

I will explain.

 

The beehaus is a development of the Dartington Hive. While having the size and ability to hold and sustain two colonies, it's primary reason for the extended brood (as in Long Deep Hive) was to be able to maintain the brood at a single level and collect the honey crop in both the brood frames and in the half-supers above.

 

With two colonies it will mean there is no surplus horizontal expansion available (beyond that of, say, a National Jumbo format) and extra vertical tiering would likely be necessary. Some colonies can collect in excess of 50kg honey in a relatively short time-frame, in a good season. That might require an extra eight half supers to be stacked on top of the four supplied with the hive. Perhaps more.

 

The Dartington was also developed as a means of easily controlling the swarming instincts of the bees by allowing the nest to be spread further to the rear of the brood box. This is, in effect, an artificial swarm technique whereby the nurse bees with the separated brood, while receiving some queen pheromone, are receiving a much reduced amount and naturally build queen cells under the supercedure impulse.

 

These cells once constructed and housing queen larvae are then isolated from the main colony, so neither swarming occurs nor does an emerging queen replace the existing queen. That is, not replacing the existing queen, until the replacement has been successfully mated, come into lay, and demonstrated a good laying pattern etc. Etc would include a measure of temperament or docility, one of the likely required traits in your colony - especially if kept in an urban environment.

 

The controlled replacement of the old queen is thus effected without swarming and with a suitable replacement. The fact that both queens will have been laying at the same time will mean a very large foraging force is available to take advantage of any nectar flow later in the season.

 

Obviously the foregoing advantages of this 'regulated' queen replacement strategy will be totally unavailable if there are two colonies in residence already. The likely outcome, unless alternative steps are taken to contol swarming, is that both colonies would swarm, half of the foragers would be lost (along with a good amount of the collected honey surplus) and the emerging queens would be of, shall we say, 'untried and untested' quality.

 

Whilst the above may, or may not be, accepted as a correct summarisation of the hive, this is the way that I have used both my Dartingtons (which I run alongside other hive formats). There are many (well at least more than two) on this forum who would, and have, disagreed with me on the subject in the recent past.

 

Perhaps you would best consult the manufacturers for their views on the matter, if at deviance with any of my arguments/explanations.

 

I am sure the house will be up to the job as a beetainer and you could run two full colonies in the one box, if you so wished. I simply would not find that a particularly practical way of keeping bees.

 

Regards, RAB

[TheChookKeeper]

Thanks for the explanation.

 

So - if I understand correctly, the Dartington hive was designed to allow collection of honey from the brood box, as well as from the supers - and by providing a bigger space in the brood box, you could create artificial swarms, due to the fact the queen would not be passing around enough queen substance to stop the workers up the far end from creating queen cells. Yes?

 

Surely then, by inserting the divider board, as Omlet suggest, you do create two independent hives, which, although perhaps not then running as Mr Dartington intended, or possibly at the most efficient the hive(s) can run at, it would all work, and be perfectly acceptable?

 

This would then leave you with effectively what you'd get with 2 standard National-type hives, whereby you need to create artificial swarms in order to control swarming?

 

SO - Is the problem with it simply that using the Beehaus as Omlet suggest isn't making the most efficient use of the design/size etc. of the long hive - because all you're ending up with is effectively 2 nationals (albeit a shade larger).

 

 

Have I got that lot right thus far?

[Guest]

Carry on and enjoy.

 

RAB

[TheChookKeeper]

I think you misunderstand - I'm not doubting you, or questioning what you've said - I'm just trying to understand it in my own head.

 

Is what I've said that wrong?

[beesontoast]

You can only get so far with theory: Oliver was talking from experience, which is the ultimate teacher.

 

IMO one should never steal honey from brood frames, in any type of hive. That is the bees' own honey.

[TheChookKeeper]

Quite so - I agree - but I don't understand why I would be stealing from the brood frame? That is what the supers are for?

[Guest]

I think you misunderstand - I'm not doubting you, or questioning what you've said - I'm just trying to understand it in my own head.

 

Is what I've said that wrong?

 

Steve - I think you are totally on the right track with what you know but I feel to save any further confusion, if you have any questions, please feel free to PM or to give me a call in the office on 0845 4502056 (Mon-Fri 9am-5.30pm) and I will answer any questions you have.

 

As for harvesting honey from the brood frames, I believe this to just be bad practice even I as a novice know this!!

 

From what I understand, the brood frames are where the bees store nectar and pollen for their immediate use. It's also where the queen lays the eggs that will hatch first into larvae and then metamorphose into new bees so if you are going to be harvesting this you are going to be harvesting pollen and larvae and I for one don't relish the thought of spreading bee larvae onto my toast in the morning...

 

I have been lucky enough to spend some time with a beekeeper from the Ealing and District Beekeeping Association who runs national hives alongside the beehaus and he (excuse pun) waxes lyrical about the beehaus and it's advantages (if you so wish I can put you in touch with him and you can chat with him first hand) saying this I have also had the pleasure of speaking to various experienced beekeepers and several from the BBKA and they are also quite taken with the advantages the beehaus gives to people who want to keep bees by making it more accessible to people so that they can be kept in the garden more as an interesting hobby and personally I also feel the beehaus has shifted away some of stuffiness which can be portrayed in the beekeeping world...

 

You may also find it useful to visit us next weekend (Saturday 17th April) and the Spring Bee Convention at Stoneleigh Park, Warwickshire to speak to the experts first hand and to talk over the beehaus or any questions you have regarding it's use with a member from the omlet team...

 

On a personal note: (my views do not in anyway represent omlet... blah blah blah....) It always makes me smile when someone see's an omlet product and damns it to the depths of hell but hasn't actually used it or seen it's benefits... it would interest me to know if most of you that post to this forum actually have a beehaus and if you were so dead against it why did you buy it in the first place and furthermore if you couldn't work with it why you didn't use the 30 day money back guarantee!

 

Anyway, Steve, the offer to call or PM still stands and also to visit us on the 17th at Stoneleigh...

 

Cheers,

[beesontoast]

I don't think anyone here wants to condemn the Beehaus outright - that would hardly be fair - but experienced beekeepers are often skeptical of new products, and some of our concerns may even turn out to be justified. On your own admission, you are not a beekeeper and so are coming to this product with the head of someone with an interest in selling it, rather than using it, so it is natural that your attention will be focused on it's 'advantages', while beekeepers will want to know the downside as well.

 

I, for one, would like to know how many beekeeping seasons this design has been tested over, for example - information that the company seems shy about. Anyone can keep bees in a plastic box for one season, but is it sustainable?

 

We also have concerns about the fact that it is made from plastic, i.e. petro-chemicals, and therefore can hardly be promoted as 'green'.

 

And then there is the price.

[v8landy]

 

I, for one, would like to know how many beekeeping seasons this design has been tested over, for example - information that the company seems shy about. Anyone can keep bees in a plastic box for one season, but is it sustainable?

 

We also have concerns about the fact that it is made from plastic, i.e. petro-chemicals, and therefore can hardly be promoted as 'green'.

 

And then there is the price.

 

I am a beehaus owner since last year and have successfully overwintered with the beehaus. I also use national hives and about to make this weekend a TBH to your plans Beensontoast, so will report back on that build. (ps nice forum Beensontoast)

 

But back to the beehaus... Firstly as many keepers say the beehive is mainly designed and developed for the convenience of the beekeeper not the bees, are the bees concerned which hives (box) they are in?

 

following on, is not the beehaus basically just a Dartington ? and also could you not also say it is of the say way of the TBH i.e horizontal spread?

 

As for the comment about petro chems, could it not be argued that an equivalent amount of petro chems is used in the production of a wood hive simple for the electrical requirements to make the hive, transport the wood, fertilise the growing trees, to name just a few?

 

So many beekeepers have got their knickers in a twist in this "new fangled thing" when people have forgotten about the positive side that has been created from the PR that Omlet have been very good at gaining?

 

But then again, you are NOT allowed in the beekeeping world to be successfully or even perish the thought to make money?!

[beesontoast]

Yes, the Beehaus is essentially a plastic Dartington, which was a design that has never really caught on, despite strong promotion by its designer over at least a 10-year period. One reason may have been the extreme weight and bulk of the wooden version, which may have been solved by the plastic Beehaus.

 

As to energy-equivalence - I really don't know, as I wouldn't know how to start doing the sums, but you would need to take lifespan and recycle-ability into account in the equation.

 

I have no objection to people making a profit from fair trading, and I'm sure that Omlet have calculated their retail price to take account of their perceived market, but I have seen a remarkable rise in the price of bees in the last two years and I suspect in that area at least, beginners are being exploited. The price of the Beehaus looks shocking to beekeepers who are used to paying half as much for a National, and even more shocking to people who build their own top bar hives from reclaimed timber for around £25.00.

 

There is also the question of suitability of materials from the bees' point of view: a plastic box is about as far away from the ecosystem of a hollow tree as it is possible to get, and only time will tell if they are willing to adapt that far.

[v8landy]

but I have seen a remarkable rise in the price of bees in the last two years and I suspect in that area at least, beginners are being exploited. .

 

Very true and even in the 5 years I have been keeping bees, the cost charge (paid) for a nuc has risen faster than the recent gold rush!

 

But it is all supply and demand, and what people are willing to and can pay for things.

 

Could it not equally be said that bees have been undervalued in the past or that now people can afford to pay more?

 

I know people that will quite happily pay £500 for a cat or dog or even a pig so why not bees?

 

And then beekeeping courses... I learnt by following a bee farmer for a few season before starting, and then my local association did and still do a 6 week evening course for a nominal fee of a bout £25 for the whole course, but compare this to most other hobbies and you would be hard pushed to find other not charging less than £25 PER HOUR for the passing on of their skills and knowledge.

 

So in summary is it really beekeeping that is been exploited or is it simply been dragged kicking and screaming into this century?

[Olly]

Good point, v8landy. I've heard of people paying £90+ for a nuc. I was lucky enough to get a swarm that had been put into a nuc box last year, and all I had to pay for was the frames!

 

With regard to the plastic box, only time will tell - however since bees have been happy to set up home in chimneys, straw skeps, air-vents, roof spaces and even animal skulls, I guess as long as they can build comb and do their work, they will probably adapt.

[v8landy]

I've heard of people paying £90+ for a nuc. :

 

£90 !!! thats Cheap, the average last year was about £150 with this year being higher.

 

As an exmple Thorne was selling them for 2010 for (wait for it)......£200 and their order book is allready full for 2010 as of now in April!

[Old Speckled Hen]

Bees, seemingly, will nest in many places.

Take a look at some very brave bee catching here

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/idavisonbees/SouthWaterBees#

Note the bare arms and the lack of "hive" winter insulation

[TheChookKeeper]

£90 !!! thats Cheap, the average last year was about £150 with this year being higher.

 

I quite agree - I contacted my local association, and was told a nuc would cost me £140 from them. I ended up ordering through Omlet (who I think go to my association anyway!), and that cost me £140 too.

 

I heard rumours of nucs being available at £90 not too far from me, but alas, rumours is all I could find!

[MedusA]

Wow!

 

That makes our BKA's suggested donation of £40-50 for a nuc last year seem like the bargain of the century!

 

I am wondering what they will charge this year as I have my name down for a swarm for myself (if I don't get one from my existing colony) and for up to three for the allotment apiary.

[beesontoast]

Bees, seemingly, will nest in many places.

Take a look at some very brave bee catching here

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/idavisonbees/SouthWaterBees#

Note the bare arms and the lack of "hive" winter insulation

 

Shame he had to put all that natural comb into frames, and most likely chill all the brood as well, but nice pictures.

 

The way to fight the silly prices of nucs is for beekeepers to get together and form local breedign co-operatives. It is remarkably easy to make nucs and raise as many bees as you need in a good year. There is no need to import queens at all - in fact this practice should IMO be stopped, as it is guaranteed to bring more pests and diseases into the country and make the situation for bees much worse.

 

Dealers are profiteering from the ignorance of beginners by selling what they call 'nucs' at inflated prices, which are actually 'packages' with imported queens. When those queens are superceded towards the end of the season, a lot of beginners are going to get a shock when their gentle bees suddenly turn bad.

 

Be sure to ask your supplier if the queen in the box is the true mother of the other bees: if not, refuse to buy.

[Old Speckled Hen]

 

Shame he had to put all that natural comb into frames, and most likely chill all the brood as well, but nice pictures.

I agree, but at least he was trying to rehouse the bees rather than kill them.

My husband is building me a Top Bar Hive.

I have two nationals but wish I'd gone solely Top Bar now.

I am half way through the evolutionary thread on the natural beekeeping forum. Riveting stuff.

[v8landy]

. It is remarkably easy to make nucs and raise as many bees as you need in a good year. There is no need to import queens at all - in fact this practice should IMO be stopped, as it is guaranteed to bring more pests and diseases into the country and make the situation for bees much worse.

 

Dealers are profiteering from the ignorance of beginners by selling what they call 'nucs' at inflated prices, which are actually 'packages' with imported queens. When those queens are superceded towards the end of the season, a lot of beginners are going to get a shock when their gentle bees suddenly turn bad.

 

Be sure to ask your supplier if the queen in the box is the true mother of the other bees: if not, refuse to buy.

 

 

100% agree with the above beesontoast.

 

PS started building my top bar hive last night, will post picture later when complet.

[Old Speckled Hen]

There's a post on one of the bee fora about a Beehaus blowing over

I have a friend who has one and they are really heavy, I phoned her and she has now hammered the legs in with tent pegs for now. I went straight out in the dark to make sure my hive straps are secure. My three Nats are on a fairly high stand and they all have a super under so I strapped them down last weekend. Phew!!!! Who'd have thought?