Locking Bar Eglu Classic

[jlo]

DD goes to our local scouts and is the only girl there. They organised a camp for this weekend and, although none of her close friends were going, she was keen to give it a try.

 

I took her there yesterday and all was fine. However, someone decided that an early morning trek was a good idea. I have no problem with that except that they had to be up at 3 am! She had less than two hours sleep as the cubs were up partying around the flag pole till gone midnight. Some of the boys had no sleep at all.

 

Am I just being a neurotic parent in thinking that this is just unreasonable? She didn't sign up for an endurance test and is not joining the army or anything. She phoned up this evening in tears as she was so tired and was worried that she would have another bad night and be even more shattered tomorrow. I have fetched her home as I couldn''t bear the thought of her out there being upset on her own in a tent. OH said that we should have been tougher and left her there and she would be fine tomorrow. He may be right but there is no way that I could have.

 

She is not a wimpy child and has been away from home on several occasions. I am sure that had they started the trek at 6am, she would have been fine and would still be there.

 

I am just wondering whether to take it any further or whether I should just let it go.

[Chucky Mama]

My youngest (12) is away at scout camp as we speak for a week. They are very strict about quiet tents and lights out and they would never get up at 3am for a walk Quite ridiculous They will be getting up at 7-8am for breakfast, those cooking it may be up earlier but they don't allow kids to hoon around all night/early hours. If the leaders are allowing this sort of silliness and getting them up at 3am I think that you are quite right to bring her home. What a shame that an experience that she was keen to give a go has been spoiled for her

[Chook n Boo Mum]

Maybe the early start was due to the fact that some of them were being little monsters & not going to bed, in the hopes that they'd settle quickly tonight? I'm not saying it's a good idea by any stretch of the imagination, just a possible reason..........I'd have expected to be told of such a plan at the outset if it was a planned expedition though

 

My DD (10) is on Scout camp this weekend too...she's the youngest of 5 girls in their tent, sharing with 2 older girls she's never met as our Troop have teamed up with another local Troop as they both have a small group going...our Troop looked like there were more Leaders than Scouts when I left last night

 

My 2 have know the leaders since they were quite small, so hopefully if there was a problem in any way they would contact me asap & having watched DS go through their camps on numerous occasions & worked with them at various meetings and fundraisers I trust them implicitly to not do anything which would harm the children physically or mentally...which overtiredness would surely come under?

 

Going back to your question, I would speak to your leaders & ask what the reasoning was behind it .......I can't see that a trek at that hour would have been a barrel of laughs for them either to be honest.

 

Sha x

Edited May 29, 2010 by Guest

[Chook n Boo Mum]

Another thought....is it just your DD's troop camping or a "district" camp.......if the latter, was it just DD's troop who were up at stupid o'clock or the whole camp............if the whole camp, then maybe a word with your leaders followed up by a letter to the organisers at district level, or request an informal meeting with both levels together.........they should be able to arrange this if requested.

 

I'm sure you wouldn't be the only unhappy mummy either.......... & it may stop it happening again in the future.

 

Sha x

[BeckyBoo]

I'd have a word, I don't have a problem with the 3am walk having done some early hours walks myself - (so much to see and hear although to be honest at this time of year you can do just as much at 4am) but it's very wrong of them to organise that walk AND not be strict about lights out. How did they think everyone was going to manage for the rest of the day?

 

BeckyBoo

[jlo]

From what I can gather, there are two troops there made up cubs, scouts and explorers. The only ones who were made to get up and do the walk were the scouts. The cubs (who had been up the latest and were the noisiest) did not go but some of the explorers chose to go on the walk. They later wondered why they had done so!

 

Becky - I know what you mean about early morning walks and I wouldn't have any problem with it if they weren't expected to have full on days for the rest of the camp. No one told us that this was on the cards. If their aim was to tire them all out so that they had an early night last night, I am sure that this would have been achieved by a slightly later start!

[Chucky Mama]

The early morning walk should have been part of the itinerary sent out with camp details. This way parents and scout could have decided whether it was something they wanted to do. It is impossible to get enough rest at camp to claw back some of those hours lost hours sleep. It will result in either tired and tearful or completely hyper children. I can see the merits of a 3am trek in the jungle when there are sights to see, but in the UK?

[Jules.]

The early morning walk should have been part of the itinerary sent out with camp details. This way parents and scout could have decided whether it was something they wanted to do. It is impossible to get enough rest at camp to claw back some of those hours lost hours sleep. It will result in either tired and tearful or completely hyper children. I can see the merits of a 3am trek in the jungle when there are sights to see, but in the UK?

 

or on a last push up Everest.....

 

 

I think you were quite right to bring your daughter home, I would have done the same.

[Chook n Boo Mum]

I agree, the benefits of what they would see on an early hike like that would be far outweighed by overtired children....they wouldn't have seen any wildlife due to the racket they would make anyway .....a hike at 6 before breakfast would have been just as good ....provided a cereal bar, piece of fruit or lump of bread was pressed into their sleepy little mitts on the way out .....crikey overtired and hungry kids......a match made in hell

 

At a Cubs overnight stay (part of some national "get as many cubs to sleep over on the same night" initiative) some of the children refused to settle, they were so excited, so at midnight the leaders were a little fed up with it & the perpetrators were taken on a run around the field.......peace reigned very quickly once they got back into their warm sleeping bags ......this was the reason why I thought maybe a "punishment hike".

 

If ours do a night hike it usually starts in the evening at dusk, before they'd normally settle for bed, & they're back for midnight - 1am.

 

And my son always slept for hours when he got back home, but enjoyed every minute of the adventures...........except the food, he was never impressed with the food

 

Sha x

[Busybird]

My DD and DS1 are also on scout camp this weekend. Last year they did several camps - one of which involved an all night hike. After a full days activities they set off at 10pm on a 12 mile hike with challenges such as those found on army assault courses every couple of miles - and this was all done by torchlight. They got back to camp at about 4am, had breakfast, packed up the tents and were ready to be collected at 9am. I have never seen my daughter so shattered but she also felt that she had achieved something - especially as some of the boys gave up at various points and were ferried back to the tents in cars.

 

A few differences with your case though. She knew this was on the itinery and it was done through the last night of camp so they went home to recover. Also, it was well disciplined and lead either by adults or sensible scouts and there was always the option to drop out if it got to be too much for any child.

 

I look on scouts as a chance for the children to be allowed to prove they can do more than many adults give them credit for - be it survival, open fire cooking or physical effort. My kids enjoy the more challenging stuff because so many youth organised events these days seem to think that a 6 mile walk is an achievement for a 12 year old. Perhaps it is if they get driven everywhere and watch TV for hours each day.

 

I wouldn't like to see scouts having to water down camp activities. Bed time on camp is always late (around midnight I think) so that there is a chance of them, and the leaders (who do a fantastic job!) sleeping. Perhaps forward warning of the camp itinery might help if there is a next time for your DD so that she can decide if she wants to do it.

[Chucky Mama]

I thought maybe a "punishment hike".

 

Sha x

 

Could have been a case of 'oh well if you are going to be up and about we'll take you on a hike'

[Alis girls]

My ES is now 14 but did cubs and they kept dreadful hours and so does YS who is in cubs. I dread and used to dread them coming home as they were wrecked, smelly and grumpy even so they had had a good time/ Bit this is stupid - thank goodness its a long weekend and 1/2 term for some. I would be inclined to complain - and I probably wouldve picked up my child too. If they are tearful and overtired they are no use to anyone. On a lighter note my ES brought home a very smelly sleeping bag once - also damp - I asked who'd weed on it but it reeked _ the conclusion in the end was it must've been a fox or badger as they left tents open. He also came home with his cub uniform and a friends plus a set of undies which were not his

[jlo]

My DD and DS1 are also on scout camp this weekend. Last year they did several camps - one of which involved an all night hike. After a full days activities they set off at 10pm on a 12 mile hike with challenges such as those found on army assault courses every couple of miles - and this was all done by torchlight. They got back to camp at about 4am, had breakfast, packed up the tents and were ready to be collected at 9am. I have never seen my daughter so shattered but she also felt that she had achieved something - especially as some of the boys gave up at various points and were ferried back to the tents in cars.

 

 

This sounds like much better planning. If it had been something like this on the last night, that makes sense.

 

When DD got home on Saturday night, she went to bed and slept for fourteen hours without moving! I dread to think how tired she would have been had she had to have another night in the tent.

 

When your daughter did the camp, were there other girls? DD was completely on her own in a tent and, I must confess that I would have found that a bit scary. This was another reason why she got so little sleep on the first night.

 

The other thing was that, because she decided quite late on to go on camp, I did not get chance to fill out the CRB forms that parents needed to do if they wanted to go along to the final day's picnic. On Friday when I dropped her off, I took along my own CRB certificate and asked if that would be ok in the circumstances. I was told - no - because it's not a scout one!

 

I am not having a particular dig at the scouts here as I know that rules have to be followed but doesn't it seem a bit ridiculous that you need different CRB certificates for every different establishment? Surely it would make more sense to have one generic one that needs updating on a regular basis.

 

Sorry - I will go and enjoy the Bank Holiday now and shut up!

[Chook n Boo Mum]

The whole system of having to have diferent CRBs for different groups is ludicrous (sp?) & is changing this summer as far as I know

 

I understand the reasoning behind her sleeping in a tent on her own, but feel that a certain amount of common sense should come in to play at camp.........under the rules even a female leader who has a female child in the group cannot share a tent...I'd have much rathered my DD to have shared with one of our female leaders than be on her own, or even my friend's hubby who often went to camp as a parent helper when DS was a scout.....anyway that's my gripe over for the morning....I'm soooo looking forward to my overtired bundle of joy coming home this afternoon

 

I hope this hasn't put her (and you ) off the camp experience as so much can be gained from a well organised one .

 

Sha x

[Alis girls]

I would not be happy about my child sleeping alone - the whole point is a them sharing a tent for fun etc. Some of the camp sites our son goes to are out in the sticks - and frankly not that secure - anyone could get into a tent - esp bad if you have a little one sleeping (or not) alone.Also the sounds of wildlife in the woods are much scarier if you are on your own - bad planning I would say. The boys are also told if they need a wee to go outside tent. Again a dodgey practice

[Egluntyne]

I agree. It sounds as if the whole thing was planned on a whim.

 

On the one hand, the fact that she was the only girl there meant that she would have to sleep by herself. ... but on the other, this made her very vulnerable on several levels.

 

I'd be lodging a complaint as things could have gone badly wrong for the youngsters. If nothing else, at least they might be prompted to rethink their procedures for another time.

[docsquid]

Well, I was in the Guides many years ago (weren't allowed in the Scouts then). We used to have midnight "wide games" that started during the hours of darkness and finished during the day. However we did know when they were going to be and extra rest periods (which some did not avail themselves of) were scheduled into the day before and after. It was a valuable experience, and we used to enjoy tracking in the dark (without torches or night vision specs), and we always felt we had achieved something. It sounds like bad planning if it was sprung on them as a surprise, and that the rests/quiet periods were not enforced. I suspect a lot of the boys were really tired too, but at least had the companionship of others to help them through.

 

As for sleeping on your own, I'm afraid that is inevitable if you are the only girl - children are not allowed in the same room/tent as adults, no matter that the adults are known and trusted, and that is that. This is even interpreted, on occasion, to mean two teenage friends, one 17 and one 18, are not allowed to share a room because the 18 year old is an "adult", even if they only differ by 2 weeks in age.

 

In your case they could have maybe arranged an intercom so she could call for help if she was worried.

[C&T]

As as (ex) scout leader, and not a parent, there are a couple of things I thought I would share.

 

Firstly CRB - The CRB is a bit of a nightmare (blame that system rather than the Scouts in this case). The CRB organisation say, that if something "dodgy" comes up about an individual, they will notify any organisation that holds a current CRB on that person. Therefore, the Scouts (in this instance) cannot use your school CRB, they must hold their own, so that they get any notifications. For all they know, the school may have had subsequent information about you that you are not disclosing. For the record - I doubt very much this is the case, but this is what the Scouts overall have to be aware of. I always say this rule has to apply to all - imagine if you found out other adults were around your child that had not been checked out properly.

 

Secondly - allowing Male and Female Scouts was always a bit of challenge for local groups, and with the utmost respect to your daughter, these kinds of situations are why. A "lone" girl - even with a female leader - can be tricky (or lone boy). They have to have their own tent, seperate wash facilities etc, and while that is not a problem to provide, it does end up segragating the lone Scout. I don't know your daughter, and do not wish to insult her in any way, but generally this can lead to the Scout getting upset/lonely, especially if they have not been away before, or not gone away very much.

 

Regarding the 3am walk... I would not expect to tell the parents everything on the Scouts itinary (obvious exceptions being anything that needed specific permission, i.e. shooting etc). This is not keeping stuff from parents, but often these types of events are fluid - things and plans change due to all sorts of variables - the scouts themselves, the weather to name but two. Giving out wrong information (all be it right at time of print) would be worse than no information in my view.

 

Scouting is there to push the boundaries, to give children opportunities to try different things. To give them confidence, promote leadership and working as part of a team. Sometimes, a child can find this very hard - and lack of sleep won't help - but in this case I would guess being a lone female was a big contributing factor too.

 

By all means talk to the leaders - but be prepared to listen to them too. They do HAVE to follow the rules, even if they seem a little crazy till you understand the reasons behind them. I am sure overall they do a fantastic job - otherwise you wouldn't have sent your daughter to camp with them

[bronze]

I loved night wide games

 

I thought the idea of these camps was to get no sleep then sleep for 3 days when you got home

I must have been doing it wrong

[hazard]

as a scout leader the activity you have discribed is what you would expect an explorer scout to do i personally would have a word with your dd leader and air your concerns as there may be other parents with the same concerns no child in scouting can be made to do an activity as this would be a child protection issue and gettin them up at 3am is not acceptable scout camps are supposed to be fun and no child should be upset or have a need to call home in distress.

[jlo]

As as (ex) scout leader, and not a parent, there are a couple of things I thought I would share.

 

Firstly CRB - The CRB is a bit of a nightmare (blame that system rather than the Scouts in this case). The CRB organisation say, that if something "dodgy" comes up about an individual, they will notify any organisation that holds a current CRB on that person. Therefore, the Scouts (in this instance) cannot use your school CRB, they must hold their own, so that they get any notifications. For all they know, the school may have had subsequent information about you that you are not disclosing. For the record - I doubt very much this is the case, but this is what the Scouts overall have to be aware of. I always say this rule has to apply to all - imagine if you found out other adults were around your child that had not been checked out properly.

 

Secondly - allowing Male and Female Scouts was always a bit of challenge for local groups, and with the utmost respect to your daughter, these kinds of situations are why. A "lone" girl - even with a female leader - can be tricky (or lone boy). They have to have their own tent, seperate wash facilities etc, and while that is not a problem to provide, it does end up segragating the lone Scout. I don't know your daughter, and do not wish to insult her in any way, but generally this can lead to the Scout getting upset/lonely, especially if they have not been away before, or not gone away very much.

 

Regarding the 3am walk... I would not expect to tell the parents everything on the Scouts itinary (obvious exceptions being anything that needed specific permission, i.e. shooting etc). This is not keeping stuff from parents, but often these types of events are fluid - things and plans change due to all sorts of variables - the scouts themselves, the weather to name but two. Giving out wrong information (all be it right at time of print) would be worse than no information in my view.

 

Scouting is there to push the boundaries, to give children opportunities to try different things. To give them confidence, promote leadership and working as part of a team. Sometimes, a child can find this very hard - and lack of sleep won't help - but in this case I would guess being a lone female was a big contributing factor too.

 

By all means talk to the leaders - but be prepared to listen to them too. They do HAVE to follow the rules, even if they seem a little crazy till you understand the reasons behind them. I am sure overall they do a fantastic job - otherwise you wouldn't have sent your daughter to camp with them

 

I hear all that you say here and have a lot of sympathy with it.

 

I do not blame the scouts at all for the CRB situation and I hope that I made that clear in my earlier post.

 

I am all for pushing the boundaries and getting young people out of their comfort zone. I have spoken to parents whose children have been on earlier camps and none of them has experienced such an early start on the first morning.

 

I think that the lone female issue is perhaps a bigger factor than I had thought. I have had a reply back from the scout leader who suggests that I was over hasty in taking DD back home and that a good night's sleep would have resolved all the issues.

 

I don't think that she would have got a good night's sleep and in no way am I blaming the scouts for this. It is just circumstance. My daughter got on really well with the other boys during the day but a tent on your own at night is a pretty lonely place and I don't think that either of us had fully appreciated that.

[C&T]

 

I think that the lone female issue is perhaps a bigger factor than I had thought. I have had a reply back from the scout leader who suggests that I was over hasty in taking DD back home and that a good night's sleep would have resolved all the issues.

 

I don't think that she would have got a good night's sleep and in no way am I blaming the scouts for this. It is just circumstance. My daughter got on really well with the other boys during the day but a tent on your own at night is a pretty lonely place and I don't think that either of us had fully appreciated that.[/color]

 

 

It's tough - for you and your daughter. Hindsite is really useful in these types of situations! I really hope it doesn't put your daughter off scouting or camping - but next time I hope she manages to get at least one female friend to go with her. I am sure it would make a massive difference - especially in that tent at night.

 

Re-reading my earlier post I was a bit defensive about Scouting - apologies if anything I said came over wrongly! But I do really believe in what Scouting can offer (and other similar organisations), and have seen it contribute enormously to a childs development.

[jlo]

I didn't want to prolong the thread too much but just wanted to say that I didn't have any problem with your post. I have a few friends who are leaders in scouts and cubs and know how passionate they are about it I agree that scouts can be incredibly beneficial and I was pleased that she was keen to go.

 

It takes quite a lot to put her off so I am hopeful that she will go again.

 

Thanks for the earlier post. It did help me when I contacted the leader!

[Chucky Mama]

I do hope that she hasn't been put off. YS has just come back from a week away and had a ball (again). 15 went, 2 of which were girls who shared a tent. Maybe she can persuade another girl to go with her next time.

[Chook n Boo Mum]

DD came back on Monday & is still catching up on her sleep

 

She was beside herself when she announced she's been asked to shoot for the District team, possibly County ..she did do other things too

 

Sha x