TAJ Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Owning two open canadian canoes and often going canoeing hearing of the tradgey up in Scotland and the loss of life is really concerning and our thoughts are with the two families concerned. Such a tradegy. We await to know the full details, but I do not know of a canoe made for 6 people and the use of life jackets is also questioned at this stage. These canoes can be bought by anyone, without training, etc and I hope this wasn't a factor in this case. If anyone is using a canadian canoe please make sure you understand the difference between a bouyancy aid and a life jacket. A bouyance aid is just that - it aids bouyancy for a good swimmer - get knocked out, or cannot swim and it isn't much use. A life jacket is a different shape and will keep the head up the right way in the water, even when knocked out, hence can be life saving. Open canoes can be very unstable, espeacially when loaded and you need to train in turning it over and recovering it from the water. To aid their bouyancy air bags can be added to the canoe - we have 60 litres of air bags in ours so it floats high in the water and a floating bright yellow rope front and back means even upturned it can be grabed easily. I would highly recommend anyone buying such boats so undertake British Canoe Union (BCU) star courses, as we all did as a family. We don't go out in a flat canal without taking precautions and I really hope safety precautions were not a factor in this case for all concerned. Tracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadietoo Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Just seen this. How dreadfully sad. But two adults and four relatively small children, even wearing bouyancy aids (which as you say Taj are actually only useful to strong swimmers who know what they are doing and are unlikely to find themselves in a situation they can't remedy) isn't a great ratio is it? Living on the South Coast I am shocked by the number of people (often daytrippers from London) who take very small children out in all manner of craft without a life-jacket, and just as bad, don't even bother to put one on themselves...but of course with their years of experience of the sea there's never going to be a problem right? and don't get me started on the Jet Skis being driven at ridiculuous speeds very close to bathing areas. I think everybody, no matter what they are paddling/sailing/driving etc should have to have training to go out on the water, and some sort of insurance/certificate to prove it ...also they should be made to pay a compulsory subscription to the lifeboats who so often have to launch to sort out stupidity.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patsylabrador Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Very sad accident. Poor people. I was interested to read what you said about the jacket because one of the children was found face down which confused me. I did wonder if the outcome would have been different if the dads had been wearing life jackets. I shall pass all that info on to my kids. I'm not there to nag them so much and my advice would probably have been wrong anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chucky Mama Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 A terrible tragedy My OH went for a morning dip in a Loch a few years ago. It was so cold that it literally took his breath away and he was able to swim for a few minutes only. I gather that the little girl had some sort of jacket on but was found face down. I am amazed that the 8 year old managed to swim for help in such cold waters. Let's pray that the little girl recovers. Sadly it sounds like all hope has been lost for the father Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAJ Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 It is really sad - the British Canoe Union basic course is in 'Paddle craft' so covers both open canoes and kayaks - you can only specialize at 3* level. We did these and membership of the BCU gives insurance, plus access to 5,000 miles of inland waterways - I do wonder how many people just stick a canoe in a river not realizing there are fees to pay for use of rivers in this country. In this case we wait to see the details, but adult to child ratio seems to be what most local swimming pools would require - not out in such cold open water. Buoyancy aids will leave you face down if not actually swimming, but if swimming are easier to swim in than a life jacket - these are generally shaped to force floating on your back, so keep your head up, but you can swim on your back. Whichever you use they have to be well fitting so you do not float out of them - shame some people do not see danger, or think it will never happen to them. I hope in this situation we find they were experienced and trained and were not taking risks. Tracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubababe Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Just seen this on the news. So sad the tragedy that has occurred over this school holiday period. My thoughts and prayers are with the families at this horrible time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 That's terrible My ex used to be a white water instructor and also taught canoeing at all levels, the BCU is very hot on safety. Canadian canoes are usually very stable but it sounds as if that one was over-loaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAJ Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 ..and now a third child (the one found face down) has died Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willow Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Terrible tragedy for all involved. I often see people put buoyancy aids that are too big onto children. If the child is too low in the buoyancy aid they could struggle to get their heads above the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAJ Posted August 27, 2012 Author Share Posted August 27, 2012 Terrible tragedy for all involved. I often see people put buoyancy aids that are too big onto children. If the child is too low in the buoyancy aid they could struggle to get their heads above the water. I know - that poor 2 year old didn't stand a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Just seen the report online; it was a regular Canadian canoe, so would have been overloaded with 6 people on it even if some where children. The report says that some of the adults weren't wearing lifejackets A terrible tragedy and I'm not one of the 'Elf and Safety' brigade but common sense needs to prevail and there should really be one adult per child in that sort of situation. They are pretty stable boats as canoes go and unless someone stands up, they're not 'tippy', I paddled in one when I was pregnant and used to take Rosie out in one when she was small, but always in a child's lifejacket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubababe Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Sadely the little girl lost her battle for life tonight. God bless you little one. Be happy with the angels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadietoo Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Terrible tragedy for all involved. I often see people put buoyancy aids that are too big onto children. If the child is too low in the buoyancy aid they could struggle to get their heads above the water. I know - that poor 2 year old didn't stand a chance. Very very tragic indeed... but you can't help but feel avoidable. I can't help but wonder how those dads thought they were going to hold on to a Canoe after it had turned turtle (as any canoe is very tippy so they must surely have thought of that possibility) with three children aged five and under all in the water, no matter what sort of bouyancy aid the children were wearing (even one that fitted properly)...surely you could either try to save your children or turn the canoe back over but not both.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scubababe Posted August 27, 2012 Share Posted August 27, 2012 Terrible tragedy for all involved. I often see people put buoyancy aids that are too big onto children. If the child is too low in the buoyancy aid they could struggle to get their heads above the water. I know - that poor 2 year old didn't stand a chance. Very very tragic indeed... but you can't help but feel avoidable. I can't help but wonder how those dads thought they were going to hold on to a Canoe after it had turned turtle (as any canoe is very tippy so they must surely have thought of that possibility) with three children aged five and under all in the water, no matter what sort of bouyancy aid the children were wearing (even one that fitted properly)...surely you could either try to save your children or turn the canoe back over but not both.... having spent 23 years in the Army and being taught that you make sure you are safe before saving others, when it's your own children I'm sure all logic goes out of the window! My husband is a rock climber (instructor level, he used to do mountain rescue) and we have already agreed that when he takes the kids rock-climbing only one will go with him at a time. The ratio will always be 1:1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seagazer Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 It is indeed a terrible tragedy, I've heard the little five year old girl has died this morning. Our canoe club runs a kayak experience hour at the local festival each year. Last year we had a father arguing with our very experienced helper who was handing out pfd (personal flotation device) because the one that was the right size for his little son was damp. He grabbed a bigger one and started to put it on his child. Our helper said that it was either the one he had or the child would not be going on the water. The father actually stood there and argued. In the end we refused all of them access to the water. Some people just do not think about the dangers. I've done a river trip in an open canadian, going down chutes and steps so they can be stable but there were only two of us in the boat and the chap in the back of the canadian was very experienced. He did a trip later with his partner, they're used to paddling a canadian together but on that trip they tipped out about 4 times. They were perfectly safe if a bit wet so it just shows that you do not know what the river/lake is going to throw at you. I feel so sorry for their families. ps forgot to add that we do not allow people out on to our lake on their own, you have to have a minimum of 3 2* BCU passed people on the water and our lake is a large flat water lake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAJ Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 We were out a few weeks ago on the river Wye, finishing at Symonds Yat with our Canadian canoe and got talking to one of the established hire companies - they have a constant battle with the 'no alcohol' policy, people even going to the drop off point first and hiding it to pick up when in a canoe. That is a reasonably fast flowing river, with a few easy rapids, but people really do not see the dangers. We were out a week ago for the weekend on the Gloucester - Sharpness canal - even on that with our inflatable canoe (a lot more stable than our hard one) we still go fully kitted out. Great fun and we have never capsized, apart from on purpose in training, but you must be aware of the 'what if?' and take necessary precautions. Tracy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Perhaps ROSPA needs to bring in or reinforce one adult per child policies. My guess is that someone stood up in the canoe (perhaps one of the children wanted top change place) then over-balanced and ended up in the water with others leaning over to rescue them and tipping the boat over. Seen it happen before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAJ Posted August 28, 2012 Author Share Posted August 28, 2012 Perhaps ROSPA needs to bring in or reinforce one adult per child policies. My guess is that someone stood up in the canoe (perhaps one of the children wanted top change place) then over-balanced and ended up in the water with others leaning over to rescue them and tipping the boat over. Seen it happen before. It only needs to hit a wave side on and that is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Agreed, they have no keel, so are tippy when the centre of gravity is disturbed. The first thing I taught Rosie was to NOT stand up in a boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken shack Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 We have a river at the bottom of our garden which usually is only about 2' deep at he most. With all the rain this year it is over the bank and at least 6' deep. My garandchildren age 2,4,6 wear life jackets when we are down there catching tiddlers. We also have a life bouy ring thing. and a hook, Just in case. The water is very clear but if a child falls in and goes under and you jump in it would not take much to churn the bottom up making visabilty difficult. Cost us a fortune to be safe but worth every penny. The 4 and 6 year old are also due to start swimming lessons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seagazer Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 We're taught how to change positions in an open canoe by keeping low, you also need to do this if you are doing features so that the balance of the boat is better for chutes etc and also how to get in and out of kayak's if you have capsized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
