Pro - Does anyone else's nest boxes get soaked in rain?

[dancing cloud]

I was really happy to be offered a job a few weeks ago, subject to references. That offer was withdrawn yesterday by a two-line letter saying the references were unsatisfactory and I'd appreciate any and all advice about how to deal with this in future.

 

I am still trying to contact the writer of the letter to explore his concerns, but they're not going to change their minds, I'm just trying to get more information. He did say, after receiving the poor reference, that we would have a discussion when he had seen the second one and that did not take place, though I suppose it's easier just to write (if a bit spineless!).

 

Local government always wants references from your current or last employer and my last job did not go well. Some of this was down to me, some to my manager and some to the need for savings. When I contacted my manager about a reference, he said he would keep it short and factual, but actually filled in all of the eight-page form with (to me) very subjective and damaging comments. When I tried to speak to him, he said he wouldn't have a debate and was not prepared to compromise himself for me . I cannot avoid giving him as a referee and need to find a way to mitigate the damage, so that one poor choice of a job that lasted only six months doesn't ruin a twenty-five year career.

 

The other reference came from my previous job, where I worked for nine years before being made redundant. It is very short and factual, and should not be a cause for concerns at all. I had got two people lined up to give full personal references if required, but got the letter before being able to offer this.

 

So, I'm stuck with having to give my last manager as a referee and now know that he will be negative rather than just neutral. Obviously I'm disappointed at losing the job and need to focus on preventing the same thing happening again, if I can.

 

I can't be the first person to ever encounter this and any/all advice would be very welcome.

[lillybettybabs]

I didn't think employers were allowed to give bad references

 

(Taken from Total jobs)

Can my employer give me a bad reference?

 

Yes and no. Many people mistakenly believe that your boss can’t give you a bad reference by law, but that’s not entirely true…

 

References just have to be accurate and truthful so if you were disciplined at your last job then they could include that on your reference. However, many employers are scared to give bad references because anything considered to be not 100% accurate could be grounds for legal action. If you find out that you have been unfairly given a bad reference then you could possibly sue.

 

You need to find out what is in the reference and if it is true

[lillybettybabs]

Just found this too!

 

 

What can I do if my old employer provides a bad reference?

 

If you believe your past employer's reference unfairly harmed your future work prospects you may be able to sue for ‘negligent misstatement’. To do so, you must show that:

 

- The information in the reference is misleading

- Providing this misleading information has had a negative effect on your future employment

- Your employer was negligent in providing a reference.

 

Alternatively, if you think there is an element of discrimination involved, you can bring your former employer to an employment tribunal.

[Bantambabe]

It sounds like you have seen the damaging reference - is there anything in it that you can challenge as being factually incorrect (or just a lie!)?

You don't say what type of work you are in - do you have a union that could support you in this?

I'm a teacher and many years ago, after a change of head was constructively dismissed - I had dared to have a baby and returned on a part-time contract, which she made temporary (I'd been permanent before) and then just let it run out. The NUT wanted to pursue for damages etc, but I was aware that I wanted to work in the area again so let it go, but then had the dilemma of needing a reference. NUT said they could work with me and her to get an "agreed" reference, but it would have been very neutral and standardised so potential employers would have had alarm bells ringing. And even if you are in the right employers are sometimes wary of someone who appears "militant" by bringing in unions - I'm the most unmilitant you could be. But it was an option.

In the end, because I had had a break in work - my contract ended at Christmas and I got a new job in April to start in the Sept - I didn't use her as referee as she wasn't my employer anymore. I asked the deputy head, who I'd worked under for 7 years.

Is there another manager or former manager at the same workplace that you could put as "former manager"?

Or maybe someone who was there but has moved on, but who you worked under and is therefore a better judge?

 

Not sure if any of that helps?

 

Debs

[dancing cloud]

The manager is far too clever to say anything out and out untruthful, and I'm sure would say it's his genuine opinion - a matter of perception. He's also very plausible and can come across as caring and concerned, whilst actually being undermining

 

I do have to accept responsibility too, as I did not perform as well in the job as I could have for a variety of reasons, so he could justify at least some of his comments as harsh but fair.

 

The union were involved (as officially I failed my probationary period though none of the formal procedures were followed) and I doubt could do much if he says it is his genuine view. The manager's immediate manager was absolutely terrified of him (and had very little to do with me).

 

Part of the frustration is with myself, as I'm usually very good at spotting if something's "off" at an interview, but was so desperate for the job I probably didn't ask the right questions and didn't see what a bully the manager was until too late. I was hoping he'd be neutral once I'd gone, but clearly not.

[Looney]

Were you working in local government?

 

If yes, I thought that it would be similar to central government (my employer) in that work references had to come from HR and were short, basically confirming you were alive and breathing and outlining any disciplinary action. The only time I would need to ask my manager to write anything would be if I was using him for a personal reference. If this is the case, I would be tempted to get a HR style reference in future and then ask a former colleague (pref a more senior one) to give you a personal reference - only if you can trust them to be positive though!

 

Xx

[lillybettybabs]

It's a scarey thought that one person can control your life like that.

[merlina]

I think Looney has hit the nail on the head - get a formal reference from HR, rather than an individual. It's likely to be far more 'neutral'.

 

I'd also suggest, for future jobs, managing the expectations of a prospective employer - explaining that there was a 'personality clash' or similar and that there will not be a good reference from x individual, although you are more than happy to supply references from other previous employers who you worked with for far more substantial periods of time and can give better (in all senses of the word!) insight into your work

 

You have a right under data protection to see any references supplied (hence I only ever take notice of verbal references when hiring someone! ), so you can go down that route. Certainly people are allowed to express and opinion, but what is privileged or fair comment within libel law is arguable. A little legal saber rattling on your part can certainly get them to tone things down (at the very least!)

[Redwing]

If you weren't taken through a disciplinary process at your old job I think you would have cause to ask someone higher up to rein in your old managers comments

 

I knew my old employer would most likely not give me more than the most basic reference if they were even minded to reply to a request for one. I have a profile on LinkedIn and asked colleagues to give me recommendations on there and simply pointed my new boss to the site if he felt he needed more information. In your case I would certainly manage their expectations at the interview stage And try to get some recommendation letters and offer copies at interviews

 

I take it local government is your speciality and there aren't job options elsewhere? If your most recent job was as part if a large organisation or local government then put an HR department down as a reference address next time as that may help as people have said above

[dancing cloud]

Thanks for the support everyone, I'm feeling much less crushed today

 

No matter who I put on the form, the reference request will still be passed to my former manager, so no way round him and, I agree, it is scarey that one person with their own agenda can do so much damage to a previously excellent record .

 

On a more positive note, I spoke to an agency I am registered with and they were of the view that their placements just go with a factual dates-and-places reference so an individual opinion would never be asked for. They also said, as others here have, that I should be up front about the difficulties if there was a point a potential employer was going to take up references from that individual, so expectations would be managed and I could get my view across first.

 

As of yesterday, there's a possibility of a temporary job at the local Asda, which could mean Asda would then be my "current or last" employer and my previous one need never be asked for a reference at all. Here's hoping and I'll be looking at LinkedIn to see if I can use that as Redwing suggested.

 

Many thanks for all the sound advice and support. I knew I could rely on you to be positive and helpful !