pdcambs Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) As the government’s compulsory treatment for AFB (American Foul Brood) is to kill the bees and burn their hive, does the manufacturer think their new plastic hives will ever become popular with established beekeepers? Even with the more common EFB (European Foul Brood) you have to kill the bees in bad cases and burn the frames, scorching the inside of hives with a blow torch before reusing, as only very high temperatures (far above those in a dishwasher) will kill the foul brood spores. It's all very well promoting beekeeping to affluent chicken fanciers, who might be willing to pay a premium for an untried product (bees are not chickens) but beekeeping associations are not going to thank you for an influx of new beginners who are also likely to be buying in foreign bees to put in their new hives, at a time when beginners courses are already struggling to keep up with demand. Peter Cambridge UK P.S. American and European foul broods are so called due to where they were first identified, we can get either in the UK. Edited August 5, 2009 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffordmum Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Good point - will be interested to read Omlet's response to this ... Rgds, Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia W Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Peter People on this forum don't represent Omlet so it's not " our" beehive at all. Staffordmum is right, it's a question for Omlet, not this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdcambs Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 (edited) There is another issue with plastic hives, beyond condensation in the winter which can kill colonies, and that is the "out-gassing" of harmful chemicals from plastics which might have adverse affects on the bees. Plastics do leach toxic chemicals, although we are told not in quantities that can harm us (although microwave Tupperware and eat the resulting dioxins at your peril) but bees are far more sensitive to such poisons (and more so than chickens too) Industrial toxins are already being blamed for much of the problems bees have faced over the last couple of decades, and I’d not be surprised if bees in plastic hives performed very poorly. Peter Cambridge UK Edited August 5, 2009 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdcambs Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 Peter People on this forum don't represent Omlet so it's not " our" beehive at all. Staffordmum is right, it's a question for Omlet, not this forum. I'm sorry, should I have referred to the hive differently and not as "your hive"...ok, I'll go back and try to edit my post. However, this is a question that should be raised here, unless.... A. You don't want to be made aware of issues surrounding plastic hives and bees? or B. You don't want anything said that could damage sales of beehaus's? Either this is a responsible forum willing to discuss all bee related issues, after all the owners of this forum are going into the beekeeping equipment business, or it is simply a tool to promote sales and I'm likely to be heavily moderated? Watch this space! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Excuse me Peter, but I find your posts to be rather harsh. A. You don't want to be made aware of issues surrounding plastic hives and bees? or B. You don't want anything said that could damage sales of beehaus's? Whilst I'm sure that many future bee keepers value input from the more experienced, please refrain from 'bashing' posters on this forum. None of us work for Omlet and the points raised have nothing to do with 'damaging sales of beehaus's' or being 'made aware of issues'. I am sure that Omlet have done their research before embarking on a new bee hive. regards, a non affluent chicken fancier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olly Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Well said, Christian. I was going to add that, if you look at the National Bee Unit statistics, the actual incidence of either EFB or AFB is extremely small - less than 1% for AFB, and only 1.72% for EFB. Further, with EFB there are other treatments available, and 132 colonies were destroyed this year out of 382 diagnosed; for AFB, 56 colonies were destroyed. Presumably Omlet have checked this out, they do research products before launching them, after all! While all beekeepers need to be alert to Foul Brood, the actual risk is a lot lower than it may be perceived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Why not address your concerns to Omlet directly, Peter? None of us on the forum have any vested interest in the sale of this particular item, and most of us are not beekeepers, but are developing an interest in the subject. It is interesting to hear differing points of view, and on this forum, with its culture of not abusing other posters, we can be sure of a balanced and informative debate. As I read on a beekeeping forum recently if you ask 4 beekepers a question, you will get 5 different answers. It is my understanding that the Beehaus has been 'trialed' extensively and I am guessing that it will be no more toxic to bees and the environment than the poly hive is. Yours, a destitute chicken keeper with dreams of one day keeping bees, after researching thoroughly and attending a beekeeping course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdcambs Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 I simply replied to someone who took exception to my raising an issue because they thought both, that I had misaddressed the question toward them, and they held the opinion the subject should not be discussed here. I have corrected the former and speculated on the latter, if you disapprove of my speculation you are free to disregard it. I think it's a matter of conjecture as to whom, if anyone, is being harsh, "bashing" or being bashed, and not a sidetracking argument I see any benefit in pursuing; and while I don't doubt any bar a few here will not be employed by Omlet this is still their forum on their official website, so moderation of posts about the beehaus that may be construed as unfavorable is not inconceivable, especially when posts are made saying this is not the place to discuss such issues. As I've said, watch this space. Either Omlet has approval of their hive design from the government bodies that regulate occurrences of bee diseases, or they don't and it's buyer beware.. you might have to burn your £450 plastic hive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 so moderation of posts about the beehaus that may be construed as unfavorable is not inconceivable. For the reassurance of anyone new to the forum, it is neither the custom nor the brief of the moderating team to moderate posts simply because they may be construed as unfavourable to Omlet products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdcambs Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 Why not address your concerns to Omlet directly, Peter? It is my understanding that the Beehaus has been 'trialed' extensively and I am guessing that it will be no more toxic to bees and the environment than the poly hive is. Two points there... 1. I had already emailed Omlet but have yet to receive a reply, not that that means the subject should not get a wider hearing. and 2. Omlets advice about bee diseases seems so far to be "pop it in the dishwasher" regardless of the FACT dishwashers do not reach the temperatures required to destroy foul brood spores. So one might speculate that "guesses" about their research being thorough are likely to be incorrect. I'm reminded of another company that claims to research the effects of their products on bees, Bayer. Might I suggest anyone interested in the effects of some vested interests on beekeeping, google "bayer bee looses Germany", it's a slightly different situation granted, but all companies are driven by sales NOT primarily bee welfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickenanne Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 I actually kind of agree with pdcambs on this one: EFB and AFB are not so common place (or at least, not so well diagnosed as us beek's in Scotland are discovering) but the only authorised way to sterilize a hive afterward is by thourough scorching with a blow-torch. Even if something else worked, it would first need to be sanctioned by agri dept as AFB and EFB are notifiable diseases. The same can be pointed out as a drawback of polly hives: whilst the issue is not unique to the Beehaus IT IS an issue. It's also good practice to scorch a hive out if the colony dies over the winter, just in case of disease. These are downsides not just of the Beehaus but also of polystyrene hives, and some people are prepared to take the risk. So long as people are aware of this and do the research (arguably this is up to them and not the Omlet marketing machine) then IMO it's their decision to buy a fairly expensive hive with this drawback. I imagine spares etc will have to come from Omlet and that may mean delays (am thinking of the cube here!) and them being relatively expensive. However, it's not up to the Omlet marketing department to point out the negatives with their new product, it's up to the purchaser. I came pretty close to buying a Dartington hive which is a wooden design similar to the Beehaus - the Dartington is a good design IMO, with the downside being that it's heavy to move (eg to heather or an out-apiary if needed). I'm personally not convinced that the Beehaus offers any real advantage over a Dartington hive. I don't know anything about how much differnet types of plastic leach chemicals to comment! But I do know that in the past people have been incredibly rude about people who by eglu's which makes everyone understandably over-sensitive (now, how clever am I to have offended everyone here? ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omlet Staff james Posted August 5, 2009 Omlet Staff Share Posted August 5, 2009 Hi guys, Sorry for the delay in posting the response to this question about foulbrood. It is seems to be a common misconception that you cannot sterilise plastic beehives, killing bacteria or spores. Plastic can be sterilised using common chemicals (e.g.bleach, caustic soda or virkon 5). This is made clear by Defra in their advisory leaflets ( https://secure.csl.gov.uk/beebase/pdfs/fbleaflet.pdf – page 34, under the head Chemical Sterilisation ). The only thing that chemicals cannot treat is wax - but you would remove this before doing the sterilisation. Wooden hives are only flamed because they have lots of nooks and crannies which you cannot reach and the wood absorbs the bacteria into its surfaces. As beekeepers ourselves, we are aware of the requirements to completely sterilise a hive that has had EFB or AFB. So, we designed the beehaus to be easy to clean and sterilise. It is also very easy to replace any part you like – simply unbolt it. As with Omlet products, every part will be available quickly and at a reasonable price. If you were unfortunate to have either type of foulbrood – you can fulfill your statutory requirements without having to burn your hive and we would help you get your hive up and running again as quickly as possible, Finally. I am sorry that you didn't get a speedy response from the general email – it has been a rather beesy day! Anyhow, if you have other concerns please email me directly james@omlet.co.uk or call me on my direct line: 01295 757 142, Yours, James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olly Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Thanks James, that's really helpful information - a lot of us have been wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 It's all very well promoting beekeeping to affluent chicken fanciers, who might be willing to pay a premium for an untried product (bees are not chickens) but beekeeping associations are not going to thank you for an influx of new beginners who are also likely to be buying in foreign bees to put in their new hives, at a time when beginners courses are already struggling to keep up with demand. Actually I object to this part of the post on so many levels. This is a friendly family forum which is moderated by volunteers and NOT run by Omlet. I certainly never feel I have been "censored" by Omlet. I am a chicken keeper who has chosen the Eglu as my coop - I am not affluent and I did not feel it was desperately more expensive than other accomodation. I did buy my first one on Ebay - where they sell for only slightly less secondhand than new - I got a bargain as someone was desperate for a quick sale and offered me a low buy it now price - were I to sell that original Eglu now I may well find I can even make a profit from it - 3 years later! I had become interested in bee keeping a while ago, long before I heard about the Beehaus . The Beehaus may well be one of the hives I consider as I know that the Omlet products are good value for money. However I will not be making a decision until I have been on a course. I find your comment that beekeeping association are not going to welcome an influx of new beginners rather insulting - with all the publicity bees have been getting I would have expected to be welcomed if I were to show commitment to beekeeping. As for foriegn bees - why would you think we will get those - from the little knowledge I already have I recognise that local bees would be best - and surely anyone going on a beekeeping association course would soon come to that conclusion. I think you have jumped in rather rashly with little knowledge of this place - you assume we are affluent chicken fanciers - an hour or so reading our posts would put paid to that idea. We are mainly green minded people who have developed an interest in nature and self sufficiency on some small scale. Chickens are the tip of the iceberg here - some have smallholdings, some are already beekeepers and one intrepid group are breeding meat birds - many have been on a kill, pluck, gut course (not me - as a vegitarian I just am NOT interested). Personally I now grow veg, make jam and sell produce from a garden stand - this would be added to with honey and home made beeswax products IF I decide - after my course - that beekeeping is for me. I heard about the Beehaus just a few weeks ago - saw it on TV for the first time today and I am thinking, having seen it, that it may well be better than I first though - however I've not yet done all my research into alternative hives - I'm already planning to ask a recent beekeeper on this forum to show me her setup when she gets more into the swing of things, although having read her experiences in depth I doubt I will be going for the same option a her - the Ikea approach sounds WAY too hard for me! You sound to me like a knowledgable person who could have some valuable information for us would be bee keepers - I hope you are staying to share that information but I suggest you spend a little time finding out what sort of forum this is before jumping in with assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 This is a great debate and discussion, although I know nothing about any of this subject I am a wild life lover etc and am so pleased that the profile of any of our valuable vunerable wildlife & bees, ladybirds etc that are becoming endangered has been raised and the public affluent /poor or whoever can be interested in supporting what I can imagine has been a declining area hobby, etc etc So I hope it is successfull for everyone/bees / experts/ non experts/beginners and new comers/new ideas /new products and new membership for the bees best welfare /education of the young old and something we have all probably taken for granted. I am looking forward to seeing lots of bees in my garden....now to go back to finding the flowers that I must grow to help to do my bit and eat lots of the honey Good luck to everyone a very interesting informative debate, I am learning here.... indie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v8landy Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 As a long standing member of the omlet forum (2008 joined) and beekeeper I am shocked that pdcambs has less than 2hrs after joining the forum, jumped in with both feet and posted such a negative post with out simple research. Why is it that SOME beekeepers as so agaist change? Shall we all go back to keeping bees in skeps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurmurf Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Hi all, I thought you might be interested to know that I thought James's information was interesting and so innocently copied it for information in my very first post on the beekeeping forum that I've just joined and I got told off about the post! From their moderator ! I mean, i don't know owt about it, do i? I am only just researching bee-keeping at the mo (although I've already got the farm land and bee-keeping buddy to join me in the venture if I decide to go ahead). I was trying to get my head around the 'flaming' issue in a plastic hive so have been reading about this on the t'interweb (including here and beekeeping forum). Well, I wish i hadn't bothered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lesley Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 I've replied to you in the other thread Laurie - don't let a few comments from people who have not taken the time to look properly at the Beehaus put you off. A lot of beeks on the forums are speaking before they even do any proper research into the product - it was the same with the Eglu.....and all the same comments are being trotted out. None of them have any proper knowledge of the Beehaus - the detaisl were only made public yesterday. I can't see that the Dartington man (sorry, can't remember his first name) would have helped on the design if he didn't think it would work? - or hadn't been involved in trials and seen that it worked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 I dont know anything about Bees but the ones that were on the TV last night in the Beehaus looked quite happy to me(they hadnt left and were buzzing away) The weather has been warm the last few days and they still looked busy bees in their Beehaus I am really suprised at the negativity of some of the posters comments when the Bee population is suffering, thought they would welcome new people with open arms or are some of the Bee clubs that exclusive members only? But I am sure they are not all like that, but it would make me more determined to find out more and join a group in a friendly area so that I could learn properly to enhance what is obviously a declining art. Perhaps some of the Bee associations could post their groups on this site (perhaps they have) Good luck I read with interest indie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Sadly as Lesley said this kind of negativity and flaming is all too common on other forums. THIS is a friendly forum and the mods keep it so - other forums are not so friendly. There are plenty who condem the Eglu and are mean, nasty and rude. If I want an overpriced little tykes chicken coop I shall have one. The fact that I don't think its overpriced and I like the low maintenance aspect means nothing to some. Last year we bought an overpriced "garden shed" in the form of a 2 storey house for James - was supposed to be varnished in the first month and every year since - hmmmm, must get round to that..... Those who condemn it don't have one and like their wooden coops - when I run hen parites I get plenty of wooden coop owners and I DON'T tell them that I think they are messy, high maintenance pieces of tat. Especially the super cheap home made ones. Actually a woman I worked with had one her husband had made out of an old wardrobe and whilst he was proud as punch she kept saying she hoped it got infested with red mite so that she could get rid of it - an eyesore in her garden! Don't be put off by what others say - keep your dignity and stay polite back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdcambs Posted August 6, 2009 Author Share Posted August 6, 2009 We are mainly green minded people who have developed an interest in nature and self sufficiency on some small scale. I'm somewhat surprised that self proclaimed "green minded" individuals would chose petrochemical derived products, when their are perfectly viable, and cheaper, more environmentally friendly alternatives! Perhaps someone would expand on that rational? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 We are mainly green minded people who have developed an interest in nature and self sufficiency on some small scale. I'm somewhat surprised that self proclaimed "green minded" individuals would chose petrochemical derived products, when their are perfectly viable, and cheaper, more environmentally friendly alternatives! Perhaps someone would expand on that rational? I'm sorry but you make no sense at all. Wood is NOT environmentally friendly, little comes from sustainable sources, much energy and petrochemicals are used in the manufacture and procurement of the product and as I already stated - they may be cheaper initially but they do not hold their value as well and need a LOT more maintenance which some of us are rather pants at. Just looking at our garden this year - the pergola badly needs painting as does the summerhouse and the 2 story childs house. Eglu needs a hose down. The last I'll manage the rest wil involve using chemical based paints and paying a handyman to come and do it. The alternatives are viable but so is using public transport to get to work - viable but takes an hour and a half, involves 3 bus changes and takes me around 25 miles to do a 4 mile journey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Computer made of wood no doubt? Am going to keep beeing interested in Bees and enjoy seeing how the new keepers get on and will be looking for some liquid gold locally too. What a great hobby I am now looking at every Bee I spot on my dog walk this morning around the fields indie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 LOL Indie I was thinking exactly the same this morning in the garden - seems a lot of bees although few honey bees - I was wondering if they had taken up residence in my deluxe nature stack - all made from recycled materials, mostly from my own garden! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
