Part 0800.0005

[sparkysmum]

Well written Mostin It's so sad that having fought for equality for generations now we still come up against this anti women attitude. Equality indeed

[Olly]

I think we're all agreed that breeding from defective stock is not good ... it's the 'usually a woman, new to chicken-keeping' line that is so insulting.

 

I am composing a response - I hope their mailbox will be inundated with disgruntled readers. If this wasn't a subscription, paid for by someone else, I would not buy this any more- I'm going to tell my friend to get me something else next year.

[Laura & CTB]

I think we're all agreed that breeding from defective stock is not good ... it's the 'usually a woman, new to chicken-keeping' line that is so insulting.

 

 

I agree.

I know there are probably a lot that think that way but to have the cheek to publish it

 

Love your reply Mostin, go girl

[Seagazer]

I can't believe he has effectively written of half the population as being useless chicken breeders. I will never breed chickens but thats just out of choice and obviously as in any animal you want to be able to breed the best you can. But still, why be so rude?

 

You can imagine where he thinks a woman should be, at home chained to the cooker, waiting patiently with his pipe and slippers for her lord and master to come home

[majorbloodnock]

Mostin, have you written to and made your opinions known to them?

[WitchHazel]

Thanks for posting a link Tom

 

Mostin, your letter is excellent, well done!

 

His sweeping judgement about it being mainly women is appalling, and that's a shame because he raises some very serious and consideration-worthy points in his article.

 

More and more of us, myself included, have moved on from keeping a couple of chickens to hatching our own. However, I don't know the finer points of the breeds I incubate, and it's quite likely that I will be be breeding substandard birds. It doesn't matter if all I am doing is keeping them for myself but it will, eventually, become a big problem if it carries on willy-nilly, and the offspring enter the wider market.

 

Show standard breeders work hard to keep the blood lines pure, to save endangered or rare breeds. But if we keep producing what are effectively mongrels and passing them into the general stock, eventually we'll have no real pure breeds left.

 

Years of adhering to standards, culling "defective" birds and only breeding from the best will be wiped out in just a few years if we aren't careful.

 

As an example, I decided I wanted to keep Dorkings as a pure breed table flock. I was offered a cockerel and "two unrelated females". I declined, as they were too far away. The seller said they would deliver, the cockerel would otherwise be culled. I declined, saying I was too far away and that it was likely the cockerel would end up in my pot, and that didn't seem fair. The lady persisted, saying the cockerel was free, he was lovely, she just wanted to save him from the pot now and give him a bit of a life. Eventually I agreed; it meant I had the start of my new flock at the end of last year, instead of having to build it up this year. . In the end, I met her part way to collect the birds ratherthan have her drive all the way here, I paid her £45 for the three of them rather than having them for free, and they were pretty little things. The lady herself was lovely.

 

As soon as I saw them though, I knew they weren't real Dorkings. They only had 4 toes. She told me it was a genetic thing, sometimes it happened. At this stage, it didn't matter, I'm not breeding to pass them on, just to give me my dinner flock.

 

When I got them home, I realised that not only did they have only 4 toes, but their legs were yellow. And they were very small. Not small enough to be bantams, but small. I emailed her to let her know that they must be Dorking crosses, and she insisted they were proper Dorkings, that they would take several years to grow fully. SHe told me her friend breeds them, and they had all come from the friend's Dorking pen. (So not only were they hybrid Dorkings, they were probably related too!). I have no doubt that the lady was genuine, she really believed what she was telling me.

 

We kept them, and they are lovely, and their offspring are lovely too. But I know that I mustn't, and I won't, pass any on. I could do. I could sell the eggs to other unsuspcting people. I could pass on the chicks - I've had a chap at our allotment ask for any "spares" as he wants to start his own flock. I could call them a "rare 4 toed Dorking".

 

The person with the five-toed orp should NOT be selling the eggs on Ebay, or anywhere else. If she wants to breed from them herself, that's fine. If she wants to create a new Orp variaton, that's fine.

 

But once the offspring of these birds get out into the wider world, it will be harder and harder for people to be sure that what they think they are buying is what they actually get, and that's a real shame.

 

In the meantime, the available pools of bloodlines for the quality birds will get smaller and smaller, and our world will get more and more cliquey.

 

It's so much easier to locate and buy eggs on Ebay, much easier than trying to sort things out using the magazines and forums. If only these proper breeders had an easy way of getting their eggs out to the public (without the attendant difficulties that making their location known brings to them).

[chickenanne]

Witchhazel, I agree.

"Good" show-standard pure breeds are bred by people wich a total passion for it. They aren't kept for eggs, or for meat, they are kept for show. What are the chances of the not-so-ideal bloodlines diluting the ideal show bird bloodlines, and being introduced back into show stock? Pretty low I would say. Most people who keep chickens aren't interested in competing in the top-end of showing, in the same way that most people with a passion for gardeinging aren't going to compete at Chelsea.

The problem is only really significant in breeds which have become pretty rare over time (Scots Dumpy became rare, got popular again, and many instances of them now are barely recognisable as meeting the breed standard); there is such a small gene-pool that "loosing" birds from it to people who will breed badly or not at all is not good news.... but then, the inevitable "substandard" birds arising from good breeding stock can at least be sold on as non-breeding pets /non-show birds helping make breeding show birds more affordable.

Whichever way you look at it, it's a two edged sword.

 

Good job as a daft wee woman I shouldn't get involved....

[ladyjulian]

Witchhazel, I agree.

Most people who keep chickens aren't interested in competing in the top-end of showing, in the same way that most people with a passion for gardening aren't going to compete at Chelsea.

 

This. I've got 4 hybrids in the back garden, and I have no intention of showing them. Likewise, when we had our elderly moggy, he wasn't going to be winning any prizes either (other than possibly as a prizefighter...)

 

People who DO show their animals have an obvious interest in keeping dummies and charlatans out of it. But look at dog-breeding - there are loads of people who either through deliberate fraud or through ignorance will sell an animal that is not as advertised. Does that mean that the target of Crufts' ire should be the families taking their ex-Battersea mongrels round the park?

 

Personally I think the more people who take up chicken keeping as a garden hobby, the better. Most of us will probably never get interested in competing - but one or two will do, and will do it properly. Yes, it's in vogue at the moment, but that doesn't invalidate newbies as 'bandwagon-jumpers,' it just means it hadn't occurred to most of us before that it was possible to keep chooks in a garden!!

 

My other hobby is cycling, which is similarly in vogue at the moment. You do hear some of the older guys in clubs moaning about how newbies are just jumping on a bandwagon, they don't keep to the rules of the road, they give us all a bad reputation, they're just fashionistas - some of that's justified, but the more people doing it the better, and for every fifty new commuters there's one or two new racers paying their club membership and even winning time trials. The more the merrier.

[chickenanne]

I don't think that things have changed: OK backyard chicken keeping is way more popular than it was say 15 years ago, but top-level showing has only ever been a pretty specialised interest within chicken-keepers. It still is a specialised interest.

 

Personally, I do think that really good examples of rare breeds should ideally be in the hands of good breeders so that gene pool doesn't fade away. But I don't believe that there are enough (any?) backyard chicken keepers who would pay a small fortune to buy that type of bird rather than a friendly, pretty, good egg-layer, non-broody to pose a risk.

[Lydia]

Go Mostin

 

I have scanned it in for anyone who hasn't read it...

 

 

I agree with all the sentiments in this thread. It was a ridiculous article.

 

But just be very careful about scanning the article on here that you don't have permission to copy. I work for a small publishing company who publish specialist magazines like P P and if someone published an article from our mags without seeking permission and paying for copyright my boss would send them a very large bill and seek further action.

 

I'm not trying to rain on anything but I'd hate Omlet or tom123 to get done just because of a silly little misogynistic fella who has a problem with female chicken keepers.

 

Very good point Lydia! Thank you for that - will edit out the pdf! - Christian

[WitchHazel]

But look at dog-breeding - there are loads of people who either through deliberate fraud or through ignorance will sell an animal that is not as advertised. Does that mean that the target of Crufts' ire should be the families taking their ex-Battersea mongrels round the park? .

 

You're absolutely right LJ, families taking their "mongrels" round the park should be left alone, as should backyard chicken keepers who choose (as I do) to keep their imperfect hatchlings.

 

But the target of Captain Chickenzie's rant isn't really the backyard keeper (at least, that's what I believe after reading the article again and putting aside my irritation at his sweeping generalisations). It's the people who sell eggs that are not necessarily what they should be.

 

It is similar to the dog situation that you describe, but the difference is that its much quicker/easier to breed lots of chickens than it is to breed and pass on the dogs. And because the cyccle is much faster, and the reproduction rate is much faster, the damage will be done much more quickly than it would be in the dog world. And those who breed show quiality stock will be affected, because they will have less and less pure bloodlines to introduce to keep their stock strong. It will be harder for them to introduce outside stock, because there is no way of checking the quality of that stock. Eventually they will end up with too much in-breeding, and the problems that result from that.

 

All I'm saying is that CC actually raises some valid points, and it's unfortunate that he presented it in such a misogynistic (sp?) and arrogant way. Instead of raising awareness and causing people to think before they put their eggs on Ebay, he's alienated a significant - and growing - section of poultry keepers.

[The Dogmother]

couldn't have said it better myself WitchHazel - he has lost his message in a mire of bigotry.

 

I keep a flock of pure breed bantams - most of them show stock rejects bought directly from the breeders; I keep them for the joy of the pretty wee things and would never consider selling on any of their eggs or offspring. There are far too many people out there (not tarring everyone with the same brush though) who are selling fertile eggs willy-nilly with no thought as to the outcome.

[mostin]

Mostin, have you written to and made your opinions known to them?

 

Yes the letter I in my 1st post on this thread is the the one I sent to P.P.

 

I suppose I should have done what OH always does in his business when he is angry and filed it in drafts and sent it today .

 

I may have worded some parts slightly differently after a re-read, but at least they will be in no doubt of how miffed the article made me .

 

It's very true what a lot of you have said, the whole point of his article has been lost because of his sweeping anti female and anti newbie statements. It could have been a worthwhile article bringing up some valid points which I think we have discussed really well on here.

 

I think it makes it quite amusing that on page 7 they are bragging that from 2007 to 2009 the annual yearly sales have gone up from 11,812 to 17,267. Who do they think is buying their magazine, could be quite a few new chicken keepers and maybe a few females do you think? .

[Falkor]

I can`t believe "Ooops, word censored!"ody has posted about it on the Prac Pol forum!

 

I was sure that a few of the ladies on there would take offence too but I can`t see anything

[Valkyrie]

Oooooh! Fzzzzzzt burn Mostin!

Now who bred those chickens that eat non-stop, grow huge in a short space of time and can't stand up? Then they are sold to supermarkets to sell cheap? Hmmmmm????? Bet that was done with lots of experimentation eh? Runs off to hide before all hell lets loose. Me stirrer?

[mostin]

I can`t believe "Ooops, word censored!"ody has posted about it on the Prac Pol forum!

 

I was sure that a few of the ladies on there would take offence too but I can`t see anything

 

Yes I checked on there before I even wrote the email and was astonished that I couldn't find anything

 

.

Oooooh! Fzzzzzzt burn Mostin!

Now who bred those chickens that eat non-stop, grow huge in a short space of time and can't stand up? Then they are sold to supermarkets to sell cheap? Hmmmmm????? Bet that was done with lots of experimentation eh? Runs off to hide before all hell lets loose. Me stirrer?

 

Bad girl

[Falkor]

I am half tempted to start a thread...although last time i did I got shouted down

[The Dogmother]

Good for you Mostin - get yer 'Big Girl Panties' on and deal with them!

[mostin]

I am half tempted to start a thread...although last time i did I got shouted down

 

If you do, I'll say my bit on there, just send me a pm with the title of the thread. there are a lot more old school types on there aren't there .

[Redwing]

The magazine has only just come out, a lot of people may get it at the weekend so give it time I am sure a thread will appear

[Woodcat]

The magazine has only just come out, a lot of people may get it at the weekend so give it time I am sure a thread will appear

 

 

Yeah mine hasn't turned up from the newsagents yet.

 

It seems a little like CC has got hugely carried away and not actually thought before he wrote. There are plenty of ways of phrasing what he said to carry his point rather than merely to desend into childish name calling. It doesn't matter what he thinks there is no way that he should have said that anyone was a silly *** the stars removing the word don't remove the ability to understand what he was implying and i don't buy a magazine about poultry that i then pass onto my young cousin for the pictures and so she can practice her reading only to have to remove parts of it due to bad implied language. I expect that sort of name calling in a gossip rag not in a magazine about poultry. ( i would hasten to add she doesn't read it till i've taken out some of the more graphic pictures and articles but she loves the mag and doesn't read much other than what they send her from school so it does her good)

 

I simply don't understand why the sex of any backyard poultry keeper is worthy of comment. So what if most people who take it up are female. It hardly means that every female breeder is bad and every male breeder is good. I'm fairly sure there are enough breeders of all descriptions and sexes selling deliberately dodgy eggs and birds. He seems to be the sort to cause more problems than he solves if he had very calmly explained why selling these eggs was not a good idea and where she could acquire birds that she could sell the eggs from there is a possibility that he could have changed her mind instead of which it sounds like he ranted and raved and she got her back put up.

 

He seems to have decided to set everyones back up and hide good points in a mud pot of hatred and stereotypes daft fool....

[Valkyrie]

I gather chickens were in the farmers wives department anyway - from what was said on the Victorian history thing they did recently (with the very nice lad in costume, and the other one and the lady and daughter making food with dirty nails - oh you know what I mean).

[mostin]

I gather chickens were in the farmers wives department anyway - from what was said on the Victorian history thing they did recently (with the very nice lad in costume, and the other one and the lady and daughter making food with dirty nails - oh you know what I mean).

 

Very true, egg money was quite often the woman's own to spend on whatever she wished, as hens were part of the kitchen garden.

 

Why when both sexes so clearly enjoy keeping poultry did comments even have to be made on what sex internet egg sellers are .

[laurmurf]

raising poultry for egg money is how the Dowager Duchess of Devonshire started out when she was a little girl called Debo Mitford.

 

If it's good enough for Debo, it's good enough for me!

[Valkyrie]

Why when both sexes so clearly enjoy keeping poultry did comments even have to be made on what sex internet egg sellers are

 

Eggactly.

 

 

raising poultry for egg money is how the Dowager Duchess of Devonshire started out when she was a little girl called Debo Mitford.

 

If it's good enough for Debo, it's good enough for me!

 

That's quite interesting. Plus the quilting ladies have what they call "egg money quilts".