Used Omlet outdoor rabbit run Width 2.2m Height 2.05m Length 3.1m vgc.

[jasperaliceuk]

Support is needed here:

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/395419680529922/

 

Sue

[Lavenders_Blue]

Ugh, this man does not need any more exposure. It makes me shudder when I hear other dog owners say they use CM training methods on their dogs - there is so much 'pack leader' nonsense still knocking around that a lot of people don't seem to realise how barbaric this man is... and then try to recreate his training methods at home. It's dangerous if you ask me - did anyone see that recent video of him getting bitten by the resource guarding dog? That's what happens when you try and 'train' dogs using violence. Idiot.

 

Sorry, rant over.

[Groovychook]

That's what happens when you try and 'train' dogs using violence. Idiot.

 

Sorry, rant over.

I've heard his name but know nothing about him- his training methods sound horrendous!

I don't do facebook so can't support the petition but thanks for making me aware of his 'work'.

[bluekarin]

I don't know anything about him but what I have heard is generally dislike for what he does. I am a little confused as I thought you were meant to be pack leader when you have dogs? I have a book by Jan Fennell The Seven Ages of Your Dog and she says about the pack leader, alpha dog thing. I agree that training through fear and violence is not the way to go

[superkitty]

I have to admit to being genuinely confused. I'm the last person who can talk about dogs, I've never had one and neither has my family, so I can't claim any knowledge at all. But I've watched The Dog Whisperer for years and years, and I've never seen him use any fear or violence? It just seems to be stuff like making sure the dog gets plenty of exercise, doesn't dominate and jump up on you, walks properly on the lead, rewarding good behaviour and ignoring bad behaviour etc.

 

Have I missed something crucial? It's a genuine question, I'm not trying to challenge anyone but just wondering what I've misunderstood. I'm planning to get a dog in the new year when we move, and up until now I would have planned to try and use cesar-type methods (as described above) to help, as well as going to training classes etc. if I needed to. Would that be the wrong approach then?

 

Could someone elaborate on what's wrong about his methods? Again, I'm not trying to challenge, just trying to increase my knowledge as a potential new dog owner so I don't do the wrong thing when the time comes.

 

Thanks to anyone who can shed some light

[jasperaliceuk]

I am very aware any discussion on this man turns into a very emotive subject as he has many supporters in the UK but I genuinely feel that those supporters have never studied dog behaviour or training in any depth. What is seen on TV looks very plausible and generally also looks like a quick fix.

 

Of course what we see on TV is not always the whole picture but one tip is to watch Cesar Milan with the sound turned off so that you tune into the dog's behaviour which is generally subdued and showing every sign of stress. Learning these signs is a very important part of dog ownership and something which is often ignored.

 

What is quoted below is taken from one of the supporter's of the campaign and explains things very well.

QUOTE

For those asking what's wrong with Cesar's methods ...

 

His training methods are based on pack hierarchy and dominance theory, theories he (and many other dog trainers) formed from studying pack behaviour in wolves. Problem is, dogs aren't wolves, don't behave the same way as wolves, and don't use pack hierarchy in the same way as wolves. In addition to that, dogs are intelligent enough to recognise the difference between dogs and humans, so don't view us as 'pack leaders' anyway! His theory on 'dominance' is wrong too, most of the dogs Cesar says are dominant are exactly the opposite, nervous and fearful. Modern dog behaviour studies have done away with the pack leader and dominance theories, and very few dog trainers subscribe to this way of thinking. Cesar's theories are very outdated, and because he bases his training method around this outdated way of thinking, his methods are very outdated too.

 

Cesar talks a good talk, the stuff he says about dominance, calm submissive energy etc, sound very plausible. Actually, as I said before, very few of the dogs featured on his show are in fact dominant, instead they are nervous, badly socialised dogs who are aggressive through fear. The dogs he calls 'calm submissive' are anything but, and if you read their body language (lip licking, etc), they are anything but calm, they're fearful dogs trying desperately to give calming signals to diffuse the situation. There is also no such thing as what Cesar calls a 'red zone case'.

 

Cesar uses a technique called 'flooding', which means constantly exposing the dog to whatever it's afraid of, until it's no longer afraid. Again, this is an outdated technique which doesn't work and does more harm than good. It's like putting someone with a spider phobia in a small room with lots of spiders. At first they'd scream and run and try to get away, eventually when they realised there was no escape, they'd stop screaming and running. Their fear of spiders wouldn't have been cured, they would have just realised that there was no escape from them. Same with the dogs Cesar trains - by forcing them to confront something they're terrified of, they eventually realise they can't escape and so shut down through fear - it hasn't cured them. What Cesar calls a 'calm submissive' dog is usually a dog who is terrified.

 

Then there's his magical 'touch', where he makes a ssshht noise and 'touches' a dog with his foot, and they magically stop doing whatever they were doing wrong. Why do you think they magically respond like that? My dog doesn't react at all if I 'touch' him with my foot, he just looks bemused, yet Cesar's dogs react instantly. It's cos they've been 'touched' (read: booted) a lot harder off camera beforehand, to condition them to it.

 

His training methods come with a 'don't try this at home' warning for a reason, because they're dangerous. People who have tried it at home have been bitten, and what Cesar doesn't tell you is that some of the dogs who he 'fixed' on his show reverted back to old, or sometimes worse, behaviour after filming. Some of the dogs Cesar 'fixed' have since been put to sleep, and Cesar has been sued at least twice by owners of dogs that he's managed to make worse instead of better.

 

He's also quite openly used prong collars (with metal spikes that jab the dog in the neck) and electric shock collars on some of the dogs on his shows.

 

It always baffles me that some people I know personally, who i'd consider intelligent, who love animals and would never intentionally be unkind to one, could be taken in by Cesar's methods and fail to see that what he's actually doing isn't humane at all. I've come to the conclusion that it's for two reasons - one, because Cesar offers a quick fix - other methods of dog training need time and repetition to become effective, whereas Cesar appears to 'fix' a dog in minutes. And two, because he makes out that his training is 'natural', based on using your energy and your dog's energy and 'talking their language', and people like the idea of that, of being some kind of 'dog whisperer'.

 

Numerous animal welfare organisations, vets and trainers have spoken out against Cesar and his methods, and there are numerous articles online about why his methods don't work. Unfortunately, Cesar talks a good talk, his shows are heavily edited to hide all the bad bits, he has a very good PR team and a very good legal team, and is quite happy to sue anyone who speaks out against him. It would appear though that, in this country at least, people are starting to realise that he isn't all he's made out to be.

 

In terms of positive trainers, Victoria Stilwell or Sarah Fisher are very good.

UNQUOTE

[Lavenders_Blue]

Thanks jasperaliceuk - I think that sums up CM very nicely. If anyone is interested in looking at the video I referred to earlier, it's all over You Tube, I am sure if you Google 'Cesar Milan gets bitten' you will soon find the video. Watch it and you won't be surprised as to why he gets bitten (to be honest I'd react in the same way if someone took my dinner away and then walloped me in the face for being cross about it).

 

Re the 'pack leader' thing - I think there is a huge difference between being a 'leader' in terms of expecting your dog to do what you ask of it, when you ask it and to follow the boundaries you set and being a leader in terms of 'dominating' the dog - using force and brutish behaviour to show it's who's boss to get what you want. I think we all expect the former of our dogs (even if they do ignore us sometimes ) but I'm sure none of us would willingly do the latter.

 

Also as jasperaliceuk points out in her quote, CM also appears to know zero about dog body language, which can be extremely dangerous if you ignore a dog's warning signals - hence why he got bitten.

 

As I said before - Idiot.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Guest

[LolaLayla]

When you get a puppy you are given so much advise about how to train them. Many trainers still use the idea that you have to dominate your dog and not let them in the door first etc. I am not sure the best way to train as there are so many experts out there who cannot agree either. Lara is now 5 months old and we go to two different classes and one trainer talks about dominance and the other says it is rubbish. I take what I find makes most sense from each and do what works for us. Using reward not punishment. I have also found 'clicker' training to be useful. I am lucky with Lara, as being a poodle she is smart and picks up things quickly. She is able to sit, down, stay, fetch, come, stand on her hind legs and walk. She can also 'heel' on the left side and 'side' on the right side. She is going to start on agility training when she is 10 months old.

One book which I am reading just now and would recommend to anyone thinking of getting a dog is "In Defence of Dogs" by John Bradshaw it gives great insight into why people originally used the wolf pack as how a dog fits into a family and why that is not now believed to be correct. Great factual stuff from studies gives the owner more understanding.

[Lavenders_Blue]

Sounds like you've got it right LolaLayla. I am honestly no expert on dog training - there are people on this forum who know a lot more than I do - but what I DO know is that I want my dog to do what I ask of her because she trusts that there will be something in it for her, or at least it won't harm/threaten her rather than because she is scared of the repercussions if she doesn't do it. It's usually not a 'quick fix' doing it this way, but it works in the long run.

 

I think the CM video irked me so much because Tango can sometimes be guardy and growly with food (usually high value food like bones). Now, I could have tried to 'fix' this by punishing her for growling at me when she has a bone because I don't think it's acceptable behaviour (which I don't). But if I did that, I run the risk that next time, she won't growl because she knows it's not allowed, so therefore will go straight to bite me instead without a warning.

 

However I know she is guardy and growly because we're pretty certain that before we got her, she was used to fighting for every s"Ooops, word censored!" of food she could get (she's an ace wheelie bin scavenger BTW ). So she's not doing it to be aggressive, she's doing it because she's worried I'm going to take her food away from her.

 

Since we've had Tango she has learnt to trust that I am not going to take her food from her, in fact when she has something nice like a bone, I have spent time just walking past and dropping a treat out of my pocket and swapping the bone for something else really tasty when I want to take it away from her. Now she trusts me that I'm not out to steal her manky old bone, and I can sit next to her and stroke her whilst she is chewing a bone and she doesn't bat an eyelid. This has taken a LOT longer than the CM method, but it's fixing the cause, not the symptom (which is the key) and is much more effective - and safer - in the long run.

 

(Phew - another long post. Sorry folks, I will shut up on this subject now.)

[superkitty]

Thanks, that's really interesting! I'll have a poke around to look at those other trainers as well

[bluekarin]

I have to pop out in a min or two so just a quick reply to say thank you for the comments you have all made on this subject. I watched a video of his and really do not like the man, never mind his training techniques. I will look at the biting one, just to see him get a bit of comeuppance

 

Lolalayla - I'd like to borrow you please to train my doggie I can pay in cups of tea and cake Neela can do some things, but she gets very excited around other people, which I am trying to sort out. She will sit, lie down, give paw, sit & wait (before crossing the road) sometimes come when I call her and finds specific toys. She is not so keen on stay if I walk out of the room. We are getting there with heel but very slowly.

[The Dogmother]

Just don't get me started on that one

[jasperaliceuk]

Just don't get me started on that one

 

[jasperaliceuk]

One book which I am reading just now and would recommend to anyone thinking of getting a dog is "In Defence of Dogs" by John Bradshaw it gives great insight into why people originally used the wolf pack as how a dog fits into a family and why that is not now believed to be correct. Great factual stuff from studies gives the owner more understanding.

 

This is what I'm just reading too - still only third way through at the dominance debunking chapter.

 

Sue

[LolaLayla]

Lolalayla - I'd like to borrow you please to train my doggie I can pay in cups of tea and cake Neela can do some things, but she gets very excited around other people, which I am trying to sort out. She will sit, lie down, give paw, sit & wait (before crossing the road) sometimes come when I call her and finds specific toys. She is not so keen on stay if I walk out of the room. We are getting there with heel but very slowly.

Oooh I will go anywhere for tea and cake Lara is not perfect and if she loses focus her mind wanders However I am really amazed how well she does in spite of my clumsy training. I have found the clicker great and she will attempt anything for treats. She is generally a quiet dog but I thought it may be a good idea to train her to bark if anyone came to the door. She will now 'speak' if I give her the sign but the noise she makes would hardly scare anyone

She does get excited when folks visit though, especially men (not that I have a huge number of male visitors!) and will wee a bit so we are trying to stop that.

jasperaliceuk- I am about 2 thirds through and am really enjoying the sections about emotions etc

[The Dogmother]

For those with puppies, Gwendoline Bailey's book is good. Turid Rugaas is good for dogs of all ages. Reward positive behaviour and learn to read your dog.

[Lavenders_Blue]

One book which I am reading just now and would recommend to anyone thinking of getting a dog is "In Defence of Dogs" by John Bradshaw it gives great insight into why people originally used the wolf pack as how a dog fits into a family and why that is not now believed to be correct. Great factual stuff from studies gives the owner more understanding.

 

This is what I'm just reading too - still only third way through at the dominance debunking chapter.

 

Sue

 

Sounds interesting - off to take a peek!

[surfer_chicken]

I didn't know about CM before reading this thread- never watched the show but I am very shocked by what I have found and what I have heard from you.

 

I watched the video (

) you mention and it was horrible to watch, especially his reaction afterwards- still so confident about it all. It is a shame to think this show is so widespread and watched by many pet owners who don't know much about animal behaviour and training. I know it says not to try these techniques at home, but many will anyway and reactions like the one from Holly there could get the poor dog put down in many cases, which is a shame as she seems quite scared I am joining the FB group as I type now!

[Egluntyne]

He got a bit of a savaging by Alan Titchmarsh evidently.

[The Dogmother]

Yes, I watched it cheering

[Lavenders_Blue]

He got a bit of a savaging by Alan Titchmarsh evidently.

 

AT was great and I loved the comment 'We've never had so many complaints about a guest before'. Says it all really!

[jasperaliceuk]

Sadly his supporters are many and quite adamant that he has no cruel techniques. Why they are so blinkered I do not understand. It is black and white when you look at the videos and read the mountain of evidence that stacks up against him.

 

Yes, he does have some redeeming features in appreciating the need for being calm with your animal (although he bangs on incessantly about that and the 'energy') and giving them appropriate exercise. He apparently does a lot of work in rescuing animals. But for all that good there is always the issue that if he is rescuing animals they are then prey to his techniques - so have they really been rescued? And as far as I am concerned any good side is negated by the poking, kicking, shocking, hanging...... The argument posed by supporters is that he 'rehabilitates' aggressive dogs which no one else can deal with. That is a pretty sweeping statement implying that his is the only way. His 'rehabilitation' lies in the explanation below.

 

I thought I would just give a link to a site which explains Learned Helplessness. This is the state that Millan puts dogs into. He constantly goads dogs into reacting and then corrects them with one of his chosen techniques, they then inevitably react again. He repeats this over and over until the dog submits and reaches this state.

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2009/11/11/learned-helplessness/

 

Sue