Goldie Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) Hi all - So Daisy has had a swelling at the base of her toe for a while now, probably 6 months quite a small swelling, but now it is visibly increasing in size. Does Bumblefoot have to have a scab at the bottom? Ever since it first appeared it has never had any broken skin (and still no scab). Every thing I read suggests antibiotics to kill any pus/infection (there is none!) or a self-service operation of which I found the youtube video very disturbing! Anyone any advice on how to stop her swelling becoming bigger? It doesn't seem to bother her (at the moment). Is she likely to develop the scab? Or is it scab before swelling? Thanks, Goldie Edited October 10, 2015 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvachicken Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 Mine have had bumblefoot a few times Goldie but it has always been on the bottom of their foot. It has been treated with antibiotics and then the scab often comes off later. Sometimes the vet has given me iodine to wash and cleanse their feet but not always. Sorry I haven't been much help but if you could post a photo of the foot then others might be able to help you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted October 8, 2015 Author Share Posted October 8, 2015 Hi, Thanks luvachicken for your reply. Unfortunately under further inspection, another 2 hens have got the typical scabs under their feet So it's likely that Daisy has it as well, despite no scab on her as yet. I reckon our perches have been too high Is there anything that can be done for them? Not sure about the antibiotic route as they are kept for eggs. Any ideas of how long the disease takes to progress to the point of pain? (none seem to be struggling to walk/perch yet). Obviously I wouldn't like the thought of them in pain. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavclojak Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 There are alternative treatments but I'm not sure how effective they are and as a relative novice I wouldn't want to attempt to treat my hens without the advice of a vet. The problem is that hens are stoic and won't show the usual signs you might expect when they are in pain or uncomfortable, which with bumblefoot I'm sure they are. I appriciate they are kept for eggs but it seems that is going to be your only choice I'm afraid. It may be a week purchasing traitors eggs or a week without eggs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I was going to ask for a photo too but if there are 3 hens with it I would look at the set up, if left untreated it will be painful and could lead to a bone infection. I've not dealt with it in chickens but we've had 3 birds of prey with bumblefoot. In raptors its caused by long talons cutting their feet (not usually a problem in chickens), a foreign body or improper perches or perching material. In chickens it can be from splinters, jumping from high perches as you say, dirty bedding or cuts when scratching around the garden. Bacteria can enter the cut, skin heals over it trapping the infection and caused an abcess. There are a few photos of Iggy and her bumblefoot surgery here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted October 9, 2015 Author Share Posted October 9, 2015 Yes in hindsight I think the perches have been too high as they do jump down with quite a bang. I am lowering them tonight to prevent any more hens getting it. Obviously I wouldn't like to think of them suffering and will be 'dealing' with them sadly I will look at the links, thank you. But after having seen a video of scalpel surgery without any anaesthetic I think that is much more barbaric than how the hen was feeling in the first place! More about perches then whilst I have a thread started.... I use rounded off square ones, some about 12 inches high, others about 18-20 inches off the ground. If they were lower is that ok? Better than being fully round? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavclojak Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Sorry....when you say "deal" with them...are you going to cull rather than treat with antibiotics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvachicken Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 A week or so without eggs isn't so bad. Mine haven't laid in over a week because they have decided to moult and that it is time to have a rest. When we had bumblefoot originally we rounded off edges and made their ladder with round rungs. It may have made a difference but my pekins then got bumblefoot. I decided it must be due to all the stones in their run so over the Summer we sieved all of their soil - it seemed like a good idea at the time Some of the stones were pretty sharp and I even cut my finger on one of them. We found glass, pottery and nails/screws. I'm also wondering if the rungs in the cube could be a problem. It seems I have removed all possible things but not yet the rungs. Apparently the heavier breeds are more prone to bumblefoot but mine are only pekins and really don't weigh any more than 1kg I hope you manage to get it sorted with some antibiotics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 You should never do surgery without anaesthetic (local or general) or pain relief so the Youtube videos sound foolish if not inhumane. A week of not using the eggs isn't a big deal in the long run. I'd use square perches with rounded edges rather than round, we have some perches in the walk in run about 5 foot off the ground and luckily never had any problems - though only the bantams and Cream Legbar use them, don't think the bigger girls would get up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvachicken Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Lewis, do you think round edges could cause a problem then ? Mine had square edges on things which have been changed to round using tree stakes ? Maybe that's why mine have problems ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 They struggle to perch properly on a round perch so can cause tendon problems, thinking smaller like a broom handle rather than a tree stake. Natural thick branches are ok because the varying thickness means they can choose where to perch. Just read: "Foot pad lesions such as bumblefoot can be caused by a number of different factors, but perch choice can play a part in the development of the condition. If a perch is: too narrow, pressure is focused in one small area of the pad; too smooth, the foot is always slipping, causing friction between the pad and perch; or set too high from the ground, a lot of pressure is put on the foot pad every time a bird flies down from the perch. Foot pad lesions can cause limping and lameness in your flock." on this article The perfect perch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted October 10, 2015 Author Share Posted October 10, 2015 Going to take a couple of pictures so you can see what we're dealing with on each of the hens. Then will work out where to go from there. Does antibiotics clear it up? I'm reading about all sorts of Epsom salt soaks, and 'Tricide neo' reads particularly well, but that is unavailable in the UK Perches have been lowered, I'll take a picture of those too, hopefully so you can assure me they're not going to cause more hens more problems... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted October 10, 2015 Author Share Posted October 10, 2015 Ok so pictures have been taken. And clothes are now in the wash!! Here is the hen I started the thread about. This is her base of toe swelling, no scab underneath. What do we think? Same hen Different hen and most typically Bumblefoot-ed. There are 2 scabs on this foot. Bad case? Another issue I'm thinking about this year which I haven't before..is these blighters currently dropping from the chestnut tree above, carpeting the ground with their deadly sharp needles. Anyone else contend with sweet chestnut cases? Finally, the gang pre-photoshoot, realising I have mealworms.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 The scab on the bottom of her foot doesn't look too bad - the toe is a bit weird though, when you feel it is it solid or pus-filled, warm to the touch? If its just scabs rather than inflammation underneath I would look at making sure their perches are sound and run is dry so that it should heal in a few weeks. If you have any concerns take them to the vet who can have a proper look and start them on antibiotics if needed. In the clinic we use DAC Bumblefoot cream when doing surgery and tanin or Betadine afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvachicken Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 Gosh Goldie, is that your garden ? We too have those blessed sweet chestnut things I am a bit naughty in that I throw them back over the fence where they came from What I should do is take out the nice chestnut to make stuffing and chuck the prickly husk back empty I hope you manage to sort out her foot. It is a good photo for us all too look at and learn from. Keep us posted with how she gets on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted October 10, 2015 Author Share Posted October 10, 2015 Thank you Lewis for mentioning those names of drugs, I will look into getting the DAC one, the iodine I think unless we have the surgery I won't use. Luvachicken - yes they definitely enjoy ranging around our acre Lucky chickens, just a shame about this bumblefoot issue. If I could get the Tricide Neo (I have emailed an ebay seller who will ship to UK), is it worth using?? If the antibiotics are just a foot bath, are the eggs still edible? Thanks, Goldie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mullethunter Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 As I understand it the reason for egg withdrawal during antibiotic treatment is that some of the antibiotics may be passed to the egg, then if you eat the egg the antibiotics will pass to you and could contribute to antibiotic resistance within you, so that if you ever had an infection requiring treatment with antibiotics they may not work properly. So, if the antibiotics are entering the chickens system at all by any route, including topical application such as a foot bath, you shouldn't eat the eggs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted October 10, 2015 Author Share Posted October 10, 2015 Thank you mullethunter - that makes sense. Any idea how long for after treatment finishes? A week? A month? Is it just for the 3 chickens I will be treating, or all 6? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvachicken Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 The last lot of antibiotics mine had - Baytril - I used for about 10-14 days and the vet said there was only a week withdrawal period, so after the 10-14 days you wait another week and then use the eggs. It was always a month withdrawal before but the vet said that things had changed and it was now only a week. Sometimes the Baytril can be added to their water but most of the time mine have had it, they have it individually via their beak - I tend to mix mine onto some mealworms or other favourite treat. The iodine I was given was just to wash their feet with, like a weak tea solution. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mullethunter Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 It should be just for the girls being treated. I can't see how they could pass antibiotics between them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewis Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 To be honest I've never heard of Tricide Neo, just googled and its for bacterial infections in ornamental fish so I wouldn't try to get hold of it. If you need antibiotics get them from a vet - using the wrong type won't help anything and just cause resistance further down the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I agree with Lewis - the scabs on the bottom of the foot just look like corns, I can't see any infection. The toe one looks more like a bursar than an infection, but do feel it for any heat or evidence of infection. I've seen a few cases of Bumblefoot recently... bad perches can be a problem, as can keeping them on gravel or concrete. A visit to the vet for antibs is the best course of action. I have treated it in the past by soaking in a warm solution of Hibiscrub, then applying a warm poultice of Animalintex, which draws out any infection and loosens the scab, which is then easily picked off when it is virtually hanging. If it has an infection, then she really does need to get to the vet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 Thanks all, No heat or redness, just as the pictures show. Not sure what a bursar is but I'm still not convinced that the original hen I asked about is bumblefoot. I will give the DAC cream a go as Lewis says. We will take it a day at a time. Antibiotics if needed...hopefully not! Thanks, Goldie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldie Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 Just wanted to update this thread and everyone who gave advice. Daisy the original hen with the swelling has had an eventful week....her toe swelling turned into a burst abscess last weekend which I only had to touch to drain. Every day we have changed a bandage, done antibacterial baths and bandaged with antimicrobial powder and antibacterial creams. The swelling is much less pronounced now and the place it drained is nicely healed over. Good result hopefully! The other 2 chickens with bumblefoot are looking better as well. I applied the DAC bumblefoot cream last night to one hen, well today the scab was hanging off! So rather impressed with the cream to cause that reaction overnight...no scalpel needed! Will continue with the cream and hopefully it will continue to improve! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvachicken Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 So glad all your girls are much improved The DAC cream sounds like it does the job. Does your tub have a decent use by/sell by date ? If it does I might consider getting some before running to the vet for the antibiotics next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
