Warm boot recommendations please

[Guest]

That's very good!!!

 

what a coincidence that you should have spotted that!

 

Phil

 

pure Presbyterian malice - now there's something I've met before!!!

[Martin B]

I havent't got time to read the whole topic- but why should Rooney have to sing the National Anthem? It's his choice, maybe he would rather hear land of hope and glory!

[Guest]

read the thread - Martin - else we'll all be repeating ourselves!!

there's no footie on!

 

Phil

[Martin B]

Haven't got time, remind me on July 10th!

[Sheilaz]

I've just thought of something! Forgetting the monarchy/republican debate a min. Is there an expectation for singing? It used to be more common to hear the anthem played at public events etc (was it in the cinema too?) and the etiquette was to stand still in respectful silence. It used to be far more unusual to be required to sing it.

[Hellcat]

...And once again the calm, cool voice of reason from Sheila!

 

I'll make the tea this time - you deserve it!

 

You are right, according to doddery old folk in my village. As for being forced to sing, maybe it would be better if we had the anthem simply played. That way we wouldnt get the cheesy voiceover commenting on who knew the words, politicians wouldnt be lambasted for not knowthe words and we would not be giving all this completely unwarranted attention to 'Gurner' Rooney in the first place! He gets quite enough attention as it is.

 

Phil, your position on Christening and going to church - I know you are a vicar but have you tried getting yourself, a reluctant pther half and 3 young children ready for a 9 o'clock service a 15 minute drive away?!?!

 

I reckon if I make it through the doors 3 times a year (Christmas Eve is counted in that, by the way) I'm doing well!

 

(And having attended 4 funerals this year, I'm already in credit! )

[Guest]

.

Phil, your position on Christening and going to church - I know you are a vicar but have you tried getting yourself, a reluctant pther half and 3 young children ready for a 9 o'clock service a 15 minute drive away?!?!

 

believe me, Helen, I have (except for the reluctant other half!) - except I had to do it as a kind of single parent because the missus is a minister too and the kids have always come to my church (for various reasons) - and at the same time having to get my stuff ready for the service... I have three kids too...

 

and (WORSE) - when they misbehave during the service there's nothing I can do about it - because I'm out at the front leading the prayers... and some church members are reluctant to get stuck in with the ministers kids... (and the kids know there is nothing I can do except glare and wag a finger during the next hymn when "Ooops, word censored!"ody else is looking!!

 

but, still, they've grown through that now, and now they specialise in answering any questions that I ask (even rhetorical ones) with deliberately ridiculous answers just for a laugh... I have no idea where they get that from.... (errr.....)

 

- I know how tough it is! - so you are absolved!!

 

My question wasn't targeted at you (honest!) - but at those who have no intention or desire to bring their children up within the life of the church - I can see no earthly (or heavenly for that matter) reason for them to have their children baptised... it just seems a bit mad to me.. (but I'd still do it for them if they wanted me to - as I said, it's them who are making the promises, not me.

 

 

I hope you have a great day!! you'll have to post some photos...

 

Phil

[Sheilaz]

...And once again the calm, cool voice of reason from Sheila!

You are right, according to doddery old folk in my village.

.....ah, I've found my niche group at last! Doddery old folk! I'm sure my sons will agree!

Phil, your position on Christening and going to church - I know you are a vicar but have you tried getting yourself, a reluctant pther half and 3 young children ready for a 9 o'clock service a 15 minute drive away?!?!

Trouble is, sometimes people just want a wedding or Christening for "a bit of a do" and don't care 2 hoots for the vicar & all, so I have some sympathy in a church trying to keep some sense of religion in it!

On the other hand, I can see both sides (I'm infuriating ) It's entirely possible to wish to have your child baptised, yet prefer not to go to church regularly. Phil, the swimming analogy...you might take up swimming lessons though not intending to take up swimming "just in case" you fall in a river. A non practising couple may wish to have their child baptised "just in case" the child needs saving one day?

 

 

[Lesley-Jean]

My mother-in-law never accepted that John and I were "married" because we had a civil wedding, (she never went to church by the way). She was also horrified because I would not have my children christened. She said if they died they would burn in hell. Really....... Not a nice God who would do that to little babies

 

Why would I want to have my children christened if I have no beleif in a God That would be really bizarre

[Guest]

On the other hand, I can see both sides (I'm infuriating ) It's entirely possible to wish to have your child baptised, yet prefer not to go to church regularly. Phil, the swimming analogy...you might take up swimming lessons though not intending to take up swimming "just in case" you fall in a river. A non practising couple may wish to have their child baptised "just in case" the child needs saving one day?[/color]

 

 

I suspect what we have here, Sheila, is a very different understanding of what baptism is.

 

I don't believe that baptism affects the way God looks upon a baby - what sort of a God would that be?? - so if the baby needed "saving" - whatever that might mean, then baptism is neither here, nor indeed, there.

 

I think the view of baptism as a kind of "insurance policy" in case the baby dies and God might send it to hell (whatever that is) - is a gross belief - and would imply a kind of God that I wouldn't want anything to do with...

 

(in case anyone was wondering - yes - we "put our money where our mouths are" in that none of our children were baptised as infants - they all had dedication services.) You can only be baptised once in your life - as an infant or as a "believer" - we wanted our children to be able to make the choice for themselves whether to be baptised. (last year my 13 year old chose to do just that - and it was a fantastic service.... I did it and was on the edge of blubbing the whole time!!)

 

so...

 

given that is what I don't believe about baptism... what DO I believe??

 

fundamentally I believe baptism is about 2 things (talking about infant baptism, obviously)

 

1. It is a sign that God always takes the first step - before we can make any commitments and before we can even conceive of "good" and "bad" - when we are still infants, God takes the first step - God welcomes us before we do anything to "deserve" it - baptism is a sign that God calls us his children - we love God because God first loves us...

 

2. It is also a human commitment - as parents and church community together to bring this child up within an environment where Christian Faith is important - which involves both a place for that child within the church family and a home environment in which Christian Faith is lived and "demonstrated".

 

 

in my church we have a range of services and we provide thanksgiving services or dedication services for parents who are honest enough to say that they simply want to celebrate the safe arrival of the child and the joy that they are bringing into the world - which is a GREAT thing to do, and so we specifically provide for it. You can do that in our church without the promises that baptism brings.

 

 

yes - different people believe different things about baptism - and yes - I will bend over backwards to accomodate people's beliefs and fears.

 

I have baptised babies who have died and stillborn babies in hospitals because parents worry they might go to hell if I didn't - and that's not the place or the time for a theological discussion about superstition and religion... it's a time for offering a small measure of hope when life is at it's darkest..

 

but whenever reasonable I do not want to encourage the idea that baptised babies go to heaven and unbaptised ones go to hell.

 

MOST couples and single parents that I talk to nowadays, when we talk through the different options opt not for the baptism service but for a thanksgiving/dedication service - they are relieved to know that there is a choice... and they are relieved to know that they don't have to go through the rigmarole of making promises that they never intended to keep just for the sake of having the family together to mark the arrival of their new baby.

 

sorry - longer than I had intended...

 

Phil

[Sheilaz]

Ooops, I started you off there, Phil! I didn't mean the word save to be taken heavily. I just meant that a lot of parents are faced with a do or don't choice about something that may cause them doubt, and may well be under different pressures from MIL's etc!

I wasn't expressing it as my own view, just pointing out that some families have a stark choice and perhaps only receive a po faced reaction when enquiring. It does happen, and can be very off putting.

I think your views, and actions, offering various services, are brilliant. What a lovely, honest & welcoming Church you have. Thanks for taking time to explain about it.

[Cinnamon]

As a non-believer I must say Phil that your views & your churches views are the most sensible I have heard of from any religion

 

I am all for free choice,be it in your religion,your personal choices or the person you choose to spend your life with

 

When Devon was born I was chatting to my neighbour over the garden fence.She was an very elderly lady,very polite,& terribly sweet, really wouldn't say boo to a goose.

She asked when the Christening would be & I said that we were not going to have her Christened.

This lady then said,well so long as you realise you are damning her to Hell when she dies

[Lesley-Jean]

I think God plays a much bigger part in a lot of peoples lives than is apparent.

 

Most people when asked about God and Religion will say that they believe in a God even if they only believe there is "something" at the centre of creation. These are probably the people who "use" the church for the regular rites of passage: birth, marriage, death but do not attend regularly or irregularly. It is a poor church system who would turn anyone away because they are not regular members. The very fact that they need the church at any time must surely mean they have a belief (I can't believe they are all hypocrites).

 

No one has ever stopped me going swimming because I don't go very often and am not very good at it !

 

I assume, Phil, that the dedication service is for the benefit of the parents and family, while the baptism service is for the individual person. I think this is an excellent way to welcome children and allow them to come to their own decision at a time which is right for them ! Or am I thinking too much down on earth and not enough up in heaven

[Guest]

sounds pefectly OK to me, L-J..

 

 

so.. that's got Rooney's patriotism, republicanism and baptism sewn up in one easy thread... you can't ask for more than that!

 

any more -isms out there need sorting??

 

Phil

[Sheilaz]

No! Definitely not! I'm so glad that several people joined in with examples, and L-J eloquently said what I had meant to say, but rambled!

Yes, what a diverse topic, and the talk on the radio just now was about whether Germans would be singing the National anthem Still, keeps bird flu out of the headlines.

[The Dogmother]

When Devon was born I was chatting to my neighbour over the garden fence.She was an very elderly lady,very polite,& terribly sweet, really wouldn't say boo to a goose.

She asked when the Christening would be & I said that we were not going to have her Christened.

This lady then said,well so long as you realise you are damning her to Hell when she dies

 

I got the same Sarah; most of my family are Roman Catholics (being Italian), and I got the third degree for not having Rosie baptised My aunt (who is my godmother) is also mortified because I haven't been confirmed, and as such I am her spiritual responsibility Luckily we don't see them often.

[Guest]

Y'see - it's as I always said - old people ARE the problem!!

 

 

Phil

[Lesley-Jean]

Y'see - it's as I always said - old people ARE the problem!!

 

 

Phil

Impossible to re-educate the "old people" I'm afraid Phil. How about euthanasia instead

[Cinnamon]

[fourfinches]

Cinnamon wrote

When Devon was born I was chatting to my neighbour over the garden fence.She was an very elderly lady,very polite,& terribly sweet, really wouldn't say boo to a goose.

She asked when the Christening would be & I said that we were not going to have her Christened.

This lady then said,well so long as you realise you are damning her to Hell when she dies

 

The official line of the Church of England is "Parents... should be assured that questions of ultimate salvation or of the provision of a Christian funeral for an infant who dies do not depend upon whether or not the child has been baptized."

 

The CofE also offers services of thanksgiving as well as baptism. Some churches promote this more than others but it should be available to all who ask. Many churches have a very open policy and will baptise any child who lives within the parish whilst others put in all sorts of restrictions about attendance and parents being married - the vicar often has little choice as a policy can be decided by the church council.

 

Morag

[Cinnamon]

Thanks Morag - I do wish I could have quoted that at the time

[theherd123]

WOW football & religion what next politics?

Just a quick question here and i do not mean to be contorversial.

I have always been led to believe that by not having a child christened can have an impact upon them if they wish to get married in specific churches when they are older - RC and some CofE.

Whilst growing up i belonged to a CofE church that had a very high service and our father took a very strict stance on this issue.

Has anyone come across the same?

If you chose not to christen your child would you regret it if they couldnt then get married in the church of their choice later in life?

[Hellcat]

Y'see - it's as I always said - old people ARE the problem!!

 

 

Phil

 

the sad thing is that I am heading in to that bracket faster and faster!

 

I can REALLY relate to the Grumpy Old Women series on TV and tried to get tickets for the tour (London dates) but they are not available!

[Hellcat]

I have always been led to believe that by not having a child christened can have an impact upon them if they wish to get married in specific churches when they are older - RC and some CofE.

 

Has anyone come across the same?

If you chose not to christen your child would you regret it if they couldnt then get married in the church of their choice later in life?

 

Yes, i have seen the same. My friend couldnt get married in a C of E church as she had never been christened and didnt want to be baptised at that point. We also were told she couldnt be a god parent to our daughter, and at that point the vicar and I had some VERY heated words about horrid horrid people who go to church every week and are awful, and lovely people who don't, and who I choose to stand for my daughter was my business. She stood for her but did not say the dedication, but it caused a lot of friction.

 

I know this will probably upset Phil, and I can see his point but the church needs to be more flexible if it is going to survive...

 

Discuss.

[fourfinches]

C of E rules are tied in with state legislation as it is the established church which is why there isn't always as much flexibility as everyone would like. But as I understand it the current rules (and this is possibly going to change in the next few years if the proposal to do away with banns goes through Parliament) you are entitled to marry in the parish church of the parish you or you partner live in, whether or not you have been baptised / christened.

 

If you want to get married in another parish you can do this by attending regularly over a six month period. The form you then fill in doesn't state what regular means - many parishes say they are happy if you've been about once a month. The problem can arise because you are meant to be baptised to become a member but it is now usually accepted that if a couple have an understanding of what Christian marriage is about they can join the church roll.

 

On Godparents - you do need to be baptised; you are making promises to help bring a child up in the Christian faith and this is hard to do if you aren't a member. I know of some churches which insist on people being baptised so they can become a Godparent but this seems silly as why make people jump through a hoop that doesn't mean anything to them. A better option is to have sponsors - a non baptised person can then stand with integrity and is saying that they will support the child and encourage them as best they can.

 

The biggest problem is different clergy interpret 'rules' differently - I've known some high churches to have some of the most open policies and others much stricter. Best thing is if you find a local church being unhelpful talk to someone else.

 

Sorry, that sounds like a bit of a ramble but a one line answer doesn't work!

 

Morag