4m x 3m Omlet pen, cube, new auto door still boxed and coop light

[ScottishMike]

Okay, this is a question I think I already know the answer to

 

When I first thought about getting a few hens, it was mainly for the eggs.

 

If you've read my few other posts you will know we haven't taken the plunge yet.

 

I had kind of thought that with a new hen only costing maybe £12 or something, vets would be out of the question since it is hardly good value to pay more to 'repair' the egg machine that it would cost to buy a newer, stronger egg machine...

 

But this forum has shown me how people come to regard the hens as pets, not 'production animals'

 

that said, the egg production that hens give is a major selling point for the Eglu products, and that is an economic argument - so the vet cost is also an economic argument, isn't it??

 

So, is there a cut-off point, beyond which it is simply not worth spending the money to save a hen from disease or injury?

 

Does the social aspect of lonely hens etc make it a stronger argument to pay the vets costs?

 

Is it a moral question, that we aren't in the chook keeping game for business, so business drivers like value for money simply don't come into it??

 

What do you think?

[Redwing]

I wouldn't care how much it cost to nurse a hen back to health I would pay any amount as long as it still had a quality of life and wasn't suffering.

 

When you take on an animal or bird you take responsibility for it and its health regardless of its worth or purchase price.

[mrs chook]

Absolutely!

[Yolky]

I guess it depends if you think of them as livestock or pets. To me they are pets and as so they, like my other pets, they will be taken to the vets if ill. I have already found, by recommendation, a avian vet in the area.

[madchickenlady]

I can only agree with redwing. My chooks are my pets, in the same way as a cat or a dog. It's my duty to provide care if it's needed, and only if the bird was suffering would I stop trying to get it healthy again.

[hennymom]

we as a household are struggling at the minute.... but my girls would come 1st before my food at least, I would ensure that any animal that cannot help itself.. be helped by me... if your car broke down would you have it made better or just cast it aside and replace ....regardless of cost that is the correct way to think of things... what matters at tha end of the day is did you never see your hen/s as anything more than a conveyor belt for egg production.. if te answer is no then no end of people on this forum advising/ telling/ giving you there opinion wont matter....you'll do what you want in the end...if however you have asked us because you have a little bit of a conscience the answer would be .............SAVE THE HEN..... SHE HAS FEELINGS LIKE YOU...imagine if your parents were told you were unwell and they had you put to sleep..... well imagine it.....lol... you are technically your hens parent ...you are all she knows... think about it

Edited September 16, 2008 by Guest

[ruth1]

I agree with everything everyone has already said,

 

Ive been to the vet with ella and her bumblefoot 3 times and its not improving really although the antibiotics have helped her feel better, its amazing how many people have said send her to the pot! (the antibiotics cost more than she did), Thats my choice though.

 

At the end of the day the decision is yours to take and how you see your chooks will affect that.

[BeckyBoo]

Well, I'm afraid I'm probably going to be absolutely villified for this, our chickens are pets that we got as egg layers, we are not in business we ave them because we love them, but we don't have easy access to a vet who knows anything about them. In fact having had a discussion with our local vet the other day I probably know more about them and I only know what I've learnt from here and as I've gone along. It would cost a fair amount to get a chicken to see a vet and unless it's a course of antibiotics I'm afraid I try to look after our chooks at home as much as possible, if nothing else to save them the stress of a car ride. Plus, all my other animals are insured against vets fees, you can't insure hens. So. Nasty I may be, but we do have limits as to what we will spend on a hen, we have three children, a dog a cat etc etc and we do not have a large income. Maybe we shouldn't have taken on animals if we can't afford to spend hundreds on each one each time it gets ill but having said we don't spend a fortune on vets fees I would never see one suffer.

We will never be like the family on TV who had a single one legged cancer suffering chicken living in the house, spending thousands keeping it alive. I'm sure they meant well but I think the only one really benefitting from it was them not the hen.

 

Mrs B

[Steve.]

If one of them becomes unwell and I couldn't fix it then I am afraid that it will be moved on. A £50 vets bill for a £10 chicken is not for us.

 

They are livestock, that happen to double as pets. If chickens didn't lay eggs we wouldn't have had them.

 

I would be very sad ... but they need to earn their keep.

[Redwing]

We will never be like the family on TV who had a single one legged cancer suffering chicken living in the house, spending thousands keeping it alive. I'm sure they meant well but I think the only one really benefitting from it was them not the hen.

 

Mrs B

 

I totally agree with you there, that is selfish

[TAJ]

Mine our pets - no less so than my cats or guinea pigs, but you have to consider quality of life. The attached is the story of the chicken that had one leg removed due to cancer - when it spread to the other leg it was have it put down or chemo - the vets bill was £2,000 apparently and the chicken was kept in a play pen in the garage as it could not look after itself with the other chickens - personally I would not do that.

 

http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/2155727.onelegged_cancer_chicken_on_road_to_recovery/

 

Tracy

[emmaw298]

I think scottishmike is probably sitting in front of his computer screen, rubbing his hands with glee at the amount of debate that this post is bound to generate!

I think that in all decisions regarding money, there will always be an economic element to consider. However, how important that single element is will differ depending on how much weight you give to other elements that are also involved.

In pet-keeping, those elements will include personal feelings towards the pet, the pet's wellbeing, the efficacy of the intervention, ie- the likelihood that the intervention will have a long-last improvement and for some, whether the pet remains viable for its function - in the chicken's instance, its ability to continue to lay eggs.

As everybody is different, everybody will rank each of those variables with varying degrees of importance. I think there are a good number of chickeners on this forum that rank the wellbeing of the pet as the most important thing to consider, with of course also the likelihood of the vet trip leading to an improvement (whether clinical improvement or just palliative) - I suppose you could also call this an economical justification as you need to decide whether spending the money will significantly improve the wellbeing of the bird - this is different to the economical justification of whether it is worth 'repairing the egg machine'.

So in answer to your question - is there a cut-off point - I think we all have a cut-off point but where that is, will depend on how you value the above variables.

Does the social aspect of lonely hens make it a stronger argument to pay the vets costs? - I think above all else, you need to consider the wellbeing of the poorly hen and do what you believe is the right thing for the hen. However yes, it may enter people's thoughts because you are still acting to maintain the wellbeing of your hens, as long as it is not prolonging the suffering of the ill hen. If you have to make the difficult decision of putting one to sleep (for its wellbeing or economical status, depending on how you see it) then it would be wrong to try and keep it alive for the sake of another lonely hen and I don't believe anyone on this forum would entertain that idea. Although, I also don't suppose someone who was more concerned with the economics of chickening would pay to have one put to sleep and might well find a cheaper alternative..?

 

Is it a moral question, that we aren't in the chook keeping game for business, so business drivers like value for money simply don't come into it??

 

Business drivers like value for money will I expect be one factor that most chickeners will need to consider, particularly in the current climate of the 'credit cruch'. However, how much you let this affect your overall decision will depend on a large number of other factors and for me, first and foremost will always be the wellbeing of my hens

Edited September 15, 2008 by Guest

[KateP]

Mine our pets - no less so than my cats or guinea pigs, but you have to consider quality of life.

 

 

Yes I agree. Our chickens are pets and, like our cat, are part of the family. However, you have got to consider if they are suffering and what sort of quality of life they would have.

[Janty]

I took Sporty Spice (a hybrid) to the vet when she was ill. With hindsight I now realise that she had simply laid a very VERY large egg and that she would have sorted herself out anyway but at the time I felt a visit to the vets was necessary and didn't hesitate. The bill was about £35 but she is a pet and it was good seeing her get back to her normal feisty self.

 

I wouldn't hesitate to do it again if I felt that one of the girls needed it.

[Redwing]

I think scottishmike is probably sitting in front of his computer screen, rubbing his hands with glee at the amount of debate that this post is bound to generate!

 

I wondered that too (could he be related to GordonBrown )

[emmaw298]

he could be - he is scottish!!!

[Mrs G]

It is a bit of a balancing act to decide how far to go. We lost our cat last year, after paying out over £1,000, which we couldn't afford. She was worth every penny, but we stopped when we got to the point when she was no longer happy and further treatment would only make her feel worse. Didn't stop me from feeling incredibly guilty even though I knew to go further would have been cruel and would be for my benefit not hers. Dreading the day anything happens to any of our girls, I understand what people have said about the chucks only costing £10, but then the cat only cost £30 from a rescue home, they all become more than just animals once you've got to know them.

 

Good grief I'm a sop!

[Egluntyne]

I hope I would be sensible to know when the time had come to let a hen go.

 

I would give them a fair chance, but would not be prepared to throw money at a hopeless situation indefinitely.

[Ain't Nobody Here]

I hope I would be sensible to know when the time had come to let a hen go.

 

I would give them a fair chance, but would not be prepared to throw money at a hopeless situation indefinitely.

 

That's what I'd have said (but probably not as succinctly) .

[Lesley]

Same here as well.

 

We crossed the line from pets to livestock when we moved to the smallholding and it does change the way you feel about them. We wouldn't let a hen suffer but we do give them a good chance and all the attention they need if they become poorly.

[ScottishMike]

I think scottishmike is probably sitting in front of his computer screen, rubbing his hands with glee at the amount of debate that this post is bound to generate!

 

I wondered that too (could he be related to GordonBrown )

 

 

No - I'm really just thinking aloud

 

Like I said, what made me think I might like to keep some hens was to get the eggs - we are very far from a well off family, so the economics of it has to be looked at for me

 

It did think that "Ooops, word censored!"ody would say 'there is a limit', so I am personally glad that a few people have said that because I just think that makes common sense. BUT - I must realise that I don't have hens yet, so I don't know how much I will feel I should do for them if/when they fall ill....

 

I can see that few 'pet' vets will have much experience with hens, and 'farm' vets probably never deal with hens because the economics mean it would not make good business sense to spend money on vets fees when a new bird is far cheaper - so as has been said above, maybe an experienced owner, with help and support from this forum, has just as good a chance of helping an ill hen as any vet????

[eggs]

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed here. When you take on an animal as either a pet or livestock you do take on a duty of care towards it but there does come a point when have to make the decision to PTS if their quality of life is adversely affected.

 

Having previously searched the local counties for a vet the deals with Koi I know it can be difficult to find a specialist vet.

 

I have also had to make the decision to PTS some of my horses. Fortunately a few were a no-brainer as they were suffering and had NO chance of recovering but my old mare (I had owned her for 15 years) came in from the field last October with a very nasty kick and after consultation with my vets I decided to let her go. Ironically as it was not 'essential' to have her PTS as she could have had an operation to try and mend the fracture she was not covered by insurance so although I knew it would cost more money not to put her through an operation with only a very small chance of success I felt it was the right decision to let her die at home in familar surroundings with no stress.

 

I am very new to the joy of chickens but when I got my four girls Jude (who I got them from) explained that basically a chicken was healthy or not !

[Daphne]

No I don't think a forum can ever replace a vet but it make a fantastic source of help and support for all sorts of things - some problems you can fix yourself with changes to food or environment for example if someone has pointed out what to do. The comfort that others have been there before you in all sort of situations is invaluable.

 

However, I've had mareks (incurable - natural death or cull/put to sleep the only options and keep very vigilant/isolate to see if symptoms spread to any others), egg peritonitis (almost certain death) and a very bad respitory infection (solvable with antibiotics) over past 2 months in the flock. They all had to be diagnosed by the vet and I have the comfort of knowing there was nothing I could do about the first two and I'm certain I saved lives with the 3rd - but only because I sought professional advice. I also know what Mareks looks like now - and I'd be off to the vet/cull like a shot in future to prevent suffering.

 

As with most things, its a balance.

[Gallina]

I know of no vet who knows about hens in my vicinity, and would therefore not take mine to any vet. I have dealt with two prolapses and a badly injured leg successfully myself, which has given me confidence.

 

One of my other hens suddenly dropped dead without any sign of illness (heart?), and another died more slowly of old age just before her third birthday, but neither needed intervention.

 

I know of someone I could call on if any hen was suffering beyond endurance, but this hasn't happened to me yet.

 

Reading the chicken clinic, many hens that get seriously ill seem to die despite the vet's treatment.

 

(Before you all get too angry with me, I should add that I only go to the doctor myself once every ten years at the most, and always wish I hadn't bothered.)

[Olly]

I'm with Steve, Mrs Bertie and others ... I love my chickens and would not see one of them suffer, but I wouldn't be prepared to pay hundreds of pounds to save them. I think you're wise to consider this Mike - I made a policy decision before I got my chickens, about how far I would go with any treatment.

 

To be honest, it's not so much about the 'price' or 'value' of the hen itself, it is about quality of life - birds suffer from stress, and are difficult to treat for some things, and if they need to be isolated from the rest of the flock or kept indoors that can affect them too. I have spent hundreds on the cat, and probably will again, as I choose not to buy insurance - but I wouldn't go down the route of dialysis, chemotherapy etc if he got a terminal illness. Then again, he is a constant companion, sleeps on the bed and will I hope be with me for many years to come. Unfortunately as Gallina has pointed out, in many cases the birds die despite veterinary treatment.

 

I don't feel the same about my chooks as I do about the cat, but I accept that others on here do, and that will influence their decision. I did take one to the vets, as I didn't feel I could treat her at home, and due to her age and condition the decision was taken that further treatment would not be beneficial - can I just say that the charge was about 1/10 of a similar trip with the cat, so I think my vet must apply a sliding scale depending on the pet!