Chicken bald back

[Chucky Mama]

I recent study was carried out putting Herbal 'Wormers' to the test. Here are the findings. CLICK

[The Dogmother]

Interesting.....

[Chucky Mama]

The study was of course more detailed that in the short article. For instance prior to treatment a post mortem was carried out on a bird from each group confirming infection with adult and larval stages of worms. The investigators were also blinded to which group was receiving treatment.

[The Dogmother]

Sounds pretty thorough to me.

[Plum]

.........and of course the study was carried out by Jannsen

[migsy]

Think I'll chuck my Verm-x wormer out and get some Flubenvet

[Lewis]

.........and of course the study was carried out by Jannsen

True

 

Do think they must have done everything by the rules though.

They can/do sometimes try + find what they want in the results though. Like it says it involved 3 different worms ... is that all of them or just a chosen few?

 

 

Either way, it shows flubenvet is better than herbal (in this case at least)

[Chucky Mama]

For them to have published the results there and in a widely read veterinary medicines magazine (probably elsewhere too but this is where I have seen it), it must have been carried out in line with various guidelines. I do note however that they are very careful not to name the herbal 'wormer'. I think that the worms chosen are probably the most commonly found. To test against all worms they would have had to intentionally infect the birds I am guessing.

[patsylabrador]

I've had my chickens for about a year now and used the 'natural parasite control' only. I'm worried that it said I could be building up problems even though they seem more than healthy at the moment. I wondered if anyone here has used only natural worm preventatives for a long period of time and not encountered problems.

I'm very thorough using stalosan and diatom in their run, am I right in thinking they help reduce risk of worms as well?

I'd rather carry on as I am but don't want to have ill pets.

[Plum]

The study appears to have shown that Flubenvet is more effective than the other product in treating heavily infested chickens, they have not shown that it is more effective as a preventative. Trials need to be taken in context with other trials which are almost certainly not published if the results differ from the intended outcome.

 

Just adding to the argument here. I have every faith in Flubenvet .

[Roobaloo]

The problem with many scientific studies is that while there are several factors which must remain constant in order to be considered "worthwhile", there are far too many variables to take this as solid evidence.

 

Has the full report been published online?

 

Did the hens all come from the same area? Were they tested before hand? Did the hens all have the same or similar parasite burden? If so, to what %? Was all other management equal? Was there any research done into previous worming programmes (and therefore possible resistence?) What was the process for the "random" selection of which hen was treated by each method?

 

The fact it was undertaken by Janssen does make me raise an eyebrow...

 

While I would sooner reach for a chemical based wormer for my hens (and all my pets), I can appreciate the benefit to a correctly managed herbal system. If the hen was hatched at home, the land and feed management was thoroughly undertaken, good quality herbal based wormers were used regularly, worm counts used regularly...and most importantly, the owner was willing to use chemical based wormers should the system be failing...I believe they have a place.

 

People who believe that simply worming 2-3 times a year with a herbal based wormer rather than a chemical based one, with no other management in place, should not be surprised by these results (though I'm sure thousands will be)

[Bramble]

This is very interesting, thank you for posting it. I've only had my chucks for a couple of weeks so haven't go around to worming yet, but was wondering which way to go. Would prefer to use VermX, but this study would suggest it's not much good? Decisions Decisions Decisions ...

[Jools]

Janssen do have a very aggressive marketing department don't they. Obviously they don't name the "herbal wormer" and the timing is probably coincidental but didn't another company introduce a new product recently. I know, I'm a cycnic but I spent over a decade working for three large, very competitive international business and my experiences made me that way.

 

That said, I don't take anything at face value and would need to find out more about their research before making a judgement about its validity.

 

For them to have published the results there and in a widely read veterinary medicines magazine (probably elsewhere too but this is where I have seen it), it must have been carried out in line with various guidelines.

 

It looks more like a widely distributed press release that has been picked up by a lot of publications.

 

I've had my chickens for about a year now and used the 'natural parasite control' only. I'm worried that it said I could be building up problems even though they seem more than healthy at the moment. I wondered if anyone here has used only natural worm preventatives for a long period of time and not encountered problems. I'm very thorough using stalosan and diatom in their run, am I right in thinking they help reduce risk of worms as well? I'd rather carry on as I am but don't want to have ill pets.

 

Me. And I believe there is one other here.

 

The product I use isn't promoted as a "wormer" but as a "natural controller of internal parasites". If you start with worm-free poultry, following the dosing guidelines and manage the ground sensibly, then yes you can maintain a healthy worm-free flock. You can confirm this by having a droppings sample tested by your vet or by sending to Retfords (around £10). I do this once a year, or if I suspect there is a problem, and after several years I can confirm that all my poultry are worm-free, happy, healthy chooks.

 

My personal view is that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you've found a regime that works for you, then stick with it. If it doesn't work, change it and try something else.

[Chucky Mama]

I have a more detailed report but I think you can request more details from ehealth@jacgb.jnj.com (Janssen I would imagine).

 

Here is some text from the article that I have that worth bearing in mind is 'According to the Veterinary Medicines Regulations 2009, a veterinary medicinal product has properties for treating or preventing disease in animals; or restores, corrects or modifies physiological functions. And of course, any product making such a claim need to be licensed by the Veterinary Medicines Directorate. A licensed product has to prove efficiancy and safety for the animal species involved. Products termed nutritional supplements face little or no controls until new EU legislations come into force until September'

 

Herbal 'wormers' are not licensed veterinary medicines.

 

I think you have to do what you feel is right. I would advise those that choose 'herbal supplements' as an alternative to licensed veterinary wormers to worm with Flubenvet at least once a year.

 

This subject always generates a bit of a debate on the forum and it is not my intention to create a stir . I of course have my own opinions. I read the article and felt that it was something that Omleteers might otherwise not have been aware of. To my knowledge this is the first time someone has 'tested' and published the results in this way

[knackered]

It would seem obvious to me that a herbal wormer would not help birds already infected - the idea behind them is a preventative working hand in hand with a variety of other factors (overall health of the birds, environment etc). Keeping the level of the worms low enough not to cause a problem.

 

So this is really just a bit of promotional research to state the obvious.

[Hengirl07780]

I have been using a herbal wormer (Verm-X) for four years now on my ex-battery hens. When they first arrived they were riddled with worms and were very unhealthy. Coupled with a good management routine I am pleased to say my vet regularly checks my girls and they are all worm free and in excellent health. Even better than that, they are chemical free. I agree with Roobaloo, this study has several flaws and is extremely biased. Pharmaceutical companies’ will always slate the herbal alternatives as for them there is no money to be made, as plants and herbs cannot be patented. I have the proof Verm-X is effective so won’t be tricked in to thinking otherwise!

[Egluntyne]

Welcome to the forum Hengirl07780.

 

Why not pop over to the 'Welcome: New Member Introduce yourself Here' thread in the Nesting Box and tell us a bit about yourself.

[Bertrum]

The study is fairly small and will be nothing like as large or rigorous as the trials that Flubenvet went through before it could be marketed as a medicine. As such, the study looks very much designed to act simply as vehicle on which to base the press releases.

 

Having said that, Flubenvet clearly has been tested to a very high level, and has demonstrated that it does kill worms. It wouldn't be a 'medicinal product' otherwise. Any product that isn't a medicine has not been tested with the same rigour and so has not demonstrated its efficacy. This does not mean that the non- medicine products do not work, just that it hasn't been proven that they do.

 

The choice is still the same I would say:

1. Kill them with a medicine.
   
2. Manage them with a worm reduction regime (which can include herbal wormers)

 

EDIT: forgot to mention... I love that banner on the Farming Monthly site, the clouds are ace.

[Chucky Mama]

I have been using a herbal wormer (Verm-X) for four years now on my ex-battery hens. When they first arrived they were riddled with worms and were very unhealthy. Coupled with a good management routine I am pleased to say my vet regularly checks my girls and they are all worm free and in excellent health.

 

I am suprised that your hens were actually cleared of worms using a herbal 'wormer'. It was my understanding that they were a preventative rather than a cure. Animals with worms are often asymtompatic and there is no visible evidence in the poo (microscopic eggs often present), do you ever have your hens poo tested Hengirl07780? I know Jools does who is another Verm-x fan.

[Jools]

I have a more detailed report but I think you can request more details from ehealth@jacgb.jnj.com (Janssen I would imagine).

 

I did. Their response says that the study will be published in a leading veterinary journal in due course (this can take up to a year) and that the study itself is hundreds of pages of results and calculations, and can therefore not be made available. They do say they're sorry they cannot help me more but that I can feel free to contact them if I require any further information.

 

I am suprised that your hens were actually cleared of worms using a herbal 'wormer'. It was my understanding that they were a preventative rather than a cure. Animals with worms are often asymtompatic and there is no visible evidence in the poo (microscopic eggs often present), do you ever have your hens poo tested Hengirl07780? I know Jools does who is another Verm-x fan.

 

I posted on this last year I think. I inherited a hen who I quarantined and dosed with Verm-x - she expelled worms soon after and a few months later tested clear.

[Chucky Mama]

[Bertrum]

I have a more detailed report but I think you can request more details from ehealth@jacgb.jnj.com (Janssen I would imagine).

 

I did. Their response says that the study will be published in a leading veterinary journal in due course (this can take up to a year) and that the study itself is hundreds of pages of results and calculations, and can therefore not be made available. They do say they're sorry they cannot help me more but that I can feel free to contact them if I require any further information.

Fairly standard practice when a 'study' is quoted in a press release I'm afraid. Ask them to provide the reference and it 'has not been published yet' or 'is in a subscription only publication so we cannot share it'. The study was almost certainly done, and probably even had the reported results, but it might never actually be published since the press release is the important thing.

 

Marketing. Expensive marketing, but marketing none the less.

[Jools]

Marketing. Expensive marketing, but marketing none the less.

 

Indeed, that's precisely how I read it. But then I rarely take anything at face value!

[Hengirl07780]

Thanks for the welcome Egluntyne My hens have a worm count twice a year which my vet does – expensive but worth it! I’m looking for a lab at the moment that would be able to do my testing for less? I was so pleased when the infestations were cleared by the herbal wormer as I try really hard to keep management as organic as possible.

[ElvisFan]

I put cider vinegar in my girls water as I read that, that was a natural worm preventer, they certainly don't mind drinking the water, in fact I tried it first for my spoilt babies and you can't taste it at all.

 

I guess it would be wise to use a wormer as well, how often do you have to use it ?