Elderly cat breathing difficulties when purring

[beach chick]

we are incomers here too, and quite unusual because most other are retirees (whereas we are mid 40s with youngish kids).

 

I think if you pick the right place, being an incomer can be great. we picked the right place in terms of the house, the space we've got and the location of our house, but prob the wrong location in terms of what its like round here.

 

we were "pioneers" of an area in London which is now quite "posh" (ok, expensive), sold up and moved to the country. couldnt have stayed there, but where we are it is v. difficult to find real friends...

[Couperman]

I find the class system weird, especially the House of Lords. Who elected them?

 

How can people see themselves as better than others purely because of which family they happen to be born into. That's just down to luck.

 

I came from a fairly modest background, spent most of my school life in the 'free dinners' or 'scunners' dinner queue. (not literally we did have lessons too! ) I did all right.

 

I take people as I find them regardless of what they do or how much dosh they happen to have.

 

Kev.

[kannie]

Interesting thread! Thanks Kate! I did some reading around the issue of class recently on my course, and though most of it has already gone from my head (scarily!), I do remember a little!

 

They were saying that financial capital has to some extent been replaced by other sorts of capital, like cultural capital. So education and knowledge of the arts (including new media cultures like this forum!) add to your social and cultural capital and hence status.

 

And that links with why lots of new design ideas come from the street and filter upwards. Whereas in the olden days rich people adopted new fashions to avoid looking common, now lots of fashions come from street culture: graffiti based, bling etc.

[Richard]

This thread made me think of Robert Burns - Ode to a Louse! The last verse (translated) goes something like;

 

O would some Power, the gift to give us,

To see ourselves as others see us!

It would from many a blunder free us,

And, foolish notion;

What airs of dress and bearing would leave us,

And even pridefullness!

 

Are we born to a class? Or is class in many ways, these days, how we see ourselves, or perhaps more accurately, how we would like others to perceive us. And then again, how do others see us? What 'class' are we put into by the people we interact with - and is that the same as how we perceive ourselves?

 

Does Mr Blair see himself as upper class, working class - or classless? He certainly likes to act the Stratocaster playing, working class, ordinary bloke, mixing with good old Noel and Liam and other representatives of the man in the street (not).

 

This is beginning to sound incredibly pretentious - I'm sorry - and its making my brain hurt again!

 

All the best

[Egluntyne]

I've always wondered if class is to do with where you start ie the family circs into which you are born...professional....skilled worker, etc....or where you end up.........if you see what I mean.

 

If you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, but end up in the gutter, how would you perceive yourself, class wise.

 

That makes my brain hurt.

[Richard]

I think there are many examples of people who would regard themselves as upper class ending up in trouble; prison, gutter whatever. My feeling is that they would consider themselves upper class whatever. Similarly I would think that a working boy who has made a fortune is always working class - and probably very proud to be working class made good.

 

People like Sir Alan Sugar who makes a lot of his working class background, will probably always consider himself to be working class - no matter how much money, possessions etc. he has. (only a guess on my part - if you are reading this Sir Alan, please don't sue me - I'm only guessing!)

 

However, working class doesn't have to mean slovenly speech and poor grammar and upper class doesn't alwas mean people conform to the stereotypes we label the upper class with. There shouldn't be an assumption about class and education, or standard of education and standard of behaviour!

 

The interesting folk, to me, are those that feel, for whatever reason, that they want to 'change class' in order to be more accepted in some circles for whatever reason. How did Tony Benn get on, given his upbringing, with some of his political allies? There are plenty of examples of people from upper class background playing working class in order to get on - Nigel Kennedy certainly seems to be putting on an act, and quite a lot of the punk musicians (I use the term rather loosely) were from privileged backgrounds.

 

Which makes me think about some of the stereotypes. Round here there is a lot of pheasant shooting and wild fowl shooting. I deplore both. However, the argument that the local (working class?) people will use is that they shoot to provide necessary food for the family. The upper class shoot for fun. I'm not sure of the validity of the statements - in fact I don't believe that there are many people who have to shoot to eat. As I said, I disapprove of shooting for fun, but does a hint of necessity, or an argued need to provide cheap food for the family, make it less unacceptable (or even possibly acceptable?).

[Charlottechicken]

They were saying that financial capital has to some extent been replaced by other sorts of capital, like cultural capital. So education and knowledge of the arts (including new media cultures like this forum!) add to your social and cultural capital and hence status.

 

Oh dear! Whatever criteria is used I will still be at the bottom of the pile

 

 

 

 

 

Never mind, it's quite nice down here

[Olly]

wow, what a great thread! I think the expansion of education - most of my peers at university were, like me, the first in their family ever to go there - has made a huge difference. Sadly, with the imposition of tuition fees and the withdrawal of grants, that will not be the case for future generations

 

I think it's harder and harder to categorise; I do a 'professional' job, and my sisters are both teachers - but both my brothers left school at 15 and went into the building trade (and have made far more money than I ever will!)

 

It can't be money any more; and more and more young people now go to university. Is it the paper you read? what you watch on tv? where you take your holidays?

 

My head is hurting now, too!

[Richard]

It's a really good point that Olly makes; having a member of the family going to University is quite often a major thing for a family. However it seems to me that there has been a big expansion in the number of people going to University, and in the degrees that you can do. A degree doesn't guarentee you a job nowadays; I'm not sure that it ever did, but certainly when I went to Uni (72 - 77) it was pretty well accepted that when you came out you would be able to find a job easily, and have a decent income.

 

It is worrying that, given the cost of going into University education, you may not now actually be sure that there is a benefit in terms of employment at the end of it. I don't think my parents would have funded me through University (and it was much cheaper for them in the '70s than it is now, as I got a decent grant) if they hadn't been sure that I would get a job at the end of it.

[beach chick]

I didnt go to uni, went to secretarial college instead becoz I fell in love and failed my Alevels (still married to him now tho!). nor did my brother, or my parents.

 

my brothers 3 oldest have been through uni. the first has a 1st class degree in product design and is working as a builder. the 2nd runs a nightclub with her partner. the 3rd is graduating now. the 4th is about to go soon...

 

for my 2, I am not convinced that uni would offer them a great deal in terms of their future career possibilities. the oldest is dyslexic, and I suspect will find her own route into something creative or with animals, the 2nd probably could go but I'm not sure that a degree is as valuable nowadays.

 

when I had a 'proper' job (as opposed to working from home) in the 80s, I found that our graduate trainees expected the world on a plate (whereas I used the secretarial route to make the break through - not an option tho now).

[bronze]

Hmmm

I didn't go to university. My brother and my parents all did though. In fasct my Mums done two degrees (she won't share!)

Would this put me in a different class to the rest of my family?

[Egluntyne]

Two of my children have been to university and one is an apprentice plumber! All went to exactly the same schools and got similar GCSE's (the plumber refused point blank to stay on at school.) and have had the same up bringing (well as "same" as you can make it....in terms of values and expectations etc)

 

Is the plumber now in a different class to his brother and sister?

 

He'd be delighted to think he was!

 

I pretty sure I know which of them will be the most successful in terms of earnings!

[Charlottechicken]

I found some info on social grading here, the ABC1 system, however, not sure if this is still used now (it is on those upmystreet type sites though).

 

Do any of you think that too much emphasis is now placed on going to University? As someone who obviously didn't go, I get the impression that some subjects covered may not be as difficult as others, and there appear to be less students interested in the more traditional cerebral subjects. Also, once these qualifications have been gained they bear no resemblance to the occupation chosen, or is that because as previously stated, there are not the jobs available.

 

As I said, this is the impression I get

[Olly]

I did go (well, polytechnic actually) but I don't actually hold university education in high regard. I have met so many people who have great qualifications but can't tie their own shoelaces!

 

I'm afraid (old fogey hat coming on here!) that I am shocked at the lack of basic ability of many young people that I come across at work - can't spell, can't write a business letter, no idea of how to answer the phone or interact with colleagues, but with huge expectations as to what they 'should' be given to do. And yes, many of these are graduates!

 

Someone else on here said it earlier - good manners can take you a long way. That and common sense are worth a lot more than a degree in a dodgy subject from a not-so-good institution.

 

Having said that, the sense of personal achievement from three years study, and the opportunity to live away from home at an early age and grow up, are something I wouldn't have missed, and my job wouldn't be open to me without a degree and post-graduate study.

[Richard]

My job is regulated such that you can't do it without the specific appropriate degree, so, like Olly, I couldn't do what I do without my degree. What that means now-a-days is that the workforce can be manipulated by altering the number of University places.

 

I am also, again like Olly, quite disappointed by the general standard of literacy in graduates. However I don't think that is necessarily something new or confined to young people (for young read anyone younger than me i.e. less than 55!).

 

I'm also disappointed by the expectation that I come across that someone with a degree, certainly in the sphere that I work in, is worth money just because they have the degree. In my view, you should earn your dosh - your education should help you do that, but you still have to perform to be worth your wages!

 

My mother in law used to tell me, before my wife and I were married (some 33 yrs ago) that just because I went to grammar school didn't mean that I had any common sence - and I'm afraid to say that she may well have been right!

Edited June 24, 2007 by Guest

[chelsea]

We Devonians born and bred "strong in the arm, thick in the head" (as the saying goes )

 

We are definitely working class.....no vast riches...just our comfortable home, car and a caravan - much the same as everyone else.

 

Everyone laughs and frowns at my husbands occupation and people behind our backs probably think he's a "thicko" from the country, but what we dont tell them is how good his salary is

[Cinnamon]

What does he do Chelsea?

[chelsea]

he's a chicken catcher!

[Richard]

That brings back memories of my holiday job when I was a schoolboy - catching in the sheds then working on the lines.

[Richard]

Chelsea; I've just realised your hens names - Sam and Ella.

Reminds me of;

knock knock,

who's there?

Sam and Janet

Sam and Janet who?

Samanjanet evening, you will see a stranger ...

 

Sorry

[chelsea]

Chelsea; I've just realised your hens names - Sam and Ella.

Reminds me of;

knock knock,

who's there?

Sam and Janet

Sam and Janet who?

Samanjanet evening, you will see a stranger ...

 

Sorry

 

hee hee

 

Gave me a chuckle before I trundled up to bed !!

[kannie]

A degree definately isn't worth what it used to be. I've just completed my jewellery degree, however there are loads of things I still can't do that people might expect me to be able to do.

 

This is partly because the educational system has been so eroded. One year = 2 semesters of 12 weeks each, i.e. 24 weeks teaching. We are only required to go in on 4 days, and most of the tutors are hourly paid - which means their day is only 4 hours long!

 

Furthermore, because its a degree, we spent one day a week on design theory, and at least another day a week on research and design work rather than actual practical making. We also had to do a 25 day placement (which was a major source of practical experience for most people).

 

Compare that to the longer terms, longer taught days, more work experience etc that one of my tutors had when she did the 'same' course 20-30 years ago: we had about half the amount practical tuition.

 

On an apprenticeship you'd have had even more experience (although probably in a more limited area).

 

And what's it all about? Money, of course. So many students have to earn a living whilst studying that they can't do longer hours, and in tandem there's less money for teaching staff. A degree is worth very little now: its a postgraduate qualification that counts!

[Guest]

I also have big problems with people that allow their kids to roam the streets at all hours of the day and then come to ask mine to do something I don't approve of!

 

Oh dear, I guess that makes me what? Terrible mother? My children, since the move, have spent every waking hour, dry or wet, when they are not at school, on the streets. Or rather, on my street, doing what children do - playing football, riding their bikes, playing tag, climbing trees, eating biscuits gained by charming various mothers with dirty hands, eating shared ice-creams bought from the ice cream van, with pennies s"Ooops, word censored!"ed together from their pockets, then when they get bored, they move up a street, and roam the streets of their freinds.

 

However, they are polite, they stay out of they way other people, they are considerate (my neighbour is of a nervous dispostition, and the sound of bike bells bothers him, so noone dings their bells when in our street, for example), they behave and they always do as they are told.

 

As for class - my mother would have you believe that our family is very much middle class - she came from a rundown slum in Edinburgh, that was demolished before it collapsed, and she married 'above herself', something my paternal grandmother never let her forget. She had to give up her job when she married, to look after my father and the home, and quickly gave birth to me and my brothers. My father was educated in a private school from the age of 8, went to Uni and was one of the first computer engineers in Europe. I married a man who is a manager for a large financial institute, and I gave up work to look after my children. wnhat does that make us?! Chookiehubbies job is enough to make us "Upper middle class" (chookiehen snorts into her hand!), but I assume the fact I let my children play in the streets makes me as low as you can get....??

 

I don;t for a minute class myself as Upper-middle class by the way - chookiehubbie has just commented that we aspire to be scuzz....

[The Dogmother]

'Aspire to be scuzz' - he has a real way with words that man of your Shona

 

Talking of money... there's a picture of the dreadful Victoria Beckham in the paper today - how come with all that money, she still manages to look like a half-starved, scuzzy lap dancer? She dresses like what my mother refers to as trash Poor girl - someone give her a square meal and some decent clothes that cover her bits.

[Cinnamon]

'Aspire to be scuzz' - he has a real way with words that man of your Shona

 

Talking of money... there's a picture of the dreadful Victoria Beckham in the paper today - how come with all that money, she still manages to look like a half-starved, scuzzy lap dancer? She dresses like what my mother refers to as trash Poor girl - someone give her a square meal and some decent clothes that cover her bits.

 

Was that the photo of her in black pants & a bolero jacket?

I saw that - she looks a really strange shape....sort of all bent & out of proportion