Solitary chicken - need advice

[Cate in NZ]

I've been mulling this one over all morning, and thought I'd share it with you.

My Mother is and always has been incredibly s"Ooops, word censored!"bish, caring massively about what the neighbours think, being well turned out and keeping up with the Jones's. So much so that Dad used to call her "Hyacinth" . As a rebellion to that I've always been really dismissive of class issues and prided myself on being egalitarian, and even at times have been guilty of a kind of reverse s"Ooops, word censored!"bery, deliberately choosing what my mother would percieve to be a lesser status option just to irritate her.

But this morning my son's school was featured on BBC Breakfast in the wake of a new report that says that white children from working class families are the lowest achievers in school these days, and focussing a lot on son's schools successes in helping the boys achieve. Now it's a fabulous school, the headteacher is a really gifted leader and he has a strong staff and structure and the boys their achieve brilliant results bearing in mind that it's a wide ability school in Kent where the Grammar system is still flourishing. (Inverse s"Ooops, word censored!"bery- son absolutely refused to even contemplate a Grammar, hated the snooty atmosphere that he sensed and I didn't force him to try for one, better I thought in a school he loves. So far it's worked)

But I got all twitchy at the repetition of "working class" over and over. I must have sensed my Mother's indignation vibrating from 250 miles away..... no one in her family could ever be working class

Now that I've thought about it I am working class, in that I have to work to provide for my family. I certainly couldn't afford to be a lady of leisure. I might have a skilled occupation, but I'm a worker every bit as much as a road sweeper is, or a lawyer. So why did I feel myself getting affronted by being referred to as working class. Old class s"Ooops, word censored!"beries obviously still live on

[The Dogmother]

That would get my mother going too Kate - she can be quite a s"Ooops, word censored!" too; Rosie goes to a fab school in the centre of Banbury, it's intake is from all walks of life, and I chose that school because it's so diverse, the teaching structure is so strong and also because it's the one that Rosie felt most happy in when we were looking around.

 

Some of the families are from professional backgrounds, some are single parents on benefits. There are probably around 20 different religions and (original) nationalities there. My mother (who is Italian, but more English than you or I) was picking Rosie up from school one afternoon, and commented on what a shame it was that there were so many 'foreign children' at the school. Now, I had to bite my tongue, because she's quite old fashioned and naive, and probably didn't mean it to sound racist. But I had to point out (gently) that on that basis, Rosie also qualifies as 'foreign' or 'mixed race' , which horrified her

 

My neighbour's son (also 9, and mixed race) goes to the village school where they used to live - she is considering changing him to Rosie's school because the amount of s"Ooops, word censored!"bery they have faced because a) she works and b) he isn't white. He's a gorgeous and talented boy, I just hope that he hasn't been affected by any of that s"Ooops, word censored!"bery.

 

Sorry, got on my high horse there

[beach chick]

interesting one.

 

I'm not sure that 'class' matters per se. what I think matters more is behaviour - being able to fit in with the group you are with and behave in a way that is acceptable to them (and also of course to society at large). I think a lot of people today are like chameleons - just look at a teenager talking to his mates, then listen to him with his parents!

 

having said that, I am a complete s"Ooops, word censored!" about certain things. I cannot bear the glottal stop, so when the kids talk about going to a 'par'y' (party) or 'bu''er (butter) I come down on them like a ton of bricks (but I love a proper regional accent). I also have big problems with people that allow their kids to roam the streets at all hours of the day and then come to ask mine to do something I don't approve of! at the girls' old school I was thought to be s"Ooops, word censored!"by - because I talk 'nicely'. s'not my fault, most of them never bothered to find out what I was actually like! - so I hate reverse s"Ooops, word censored!"bery.

 

I suppose I'd be defined as middle class (professional occupation), but I have to work; OH makes kitchens, so he's probably a manual labourer; and my Dad was in the Navy and Mum worked sporadically when she could (usually something to do with books).

[Dippy Egg]

Maybe you just didn`t like being put into any category? I suppose we all put ourselves into categories according to many factors; age, education, wealth, health, race, colour, gender, intellect etc etc but life is not black and white but many shades of grey. Traditional class divisions are so old fashioned yet like chickens we are all aware of a 'pecking order' I suppose. Too much thinking for one day, I`m off for a cup of tea

[The Dogmother]

having said that, I am a complete s"Ooops, word censored!" about certain things. I cannot bear the glottal stop, so when the kids talk about going to a 'par'y' (party) or 'bu''er (butter) I come down on them like a ton of bricks (but I love a proper regional accent). I also have big problems with people that allow their kids to roam the streets at all hours of the day and then come to ask mine to do something I don't approve of! at the girls' old school I was thought to be s"Ooops, word censored!"by - because I talk 'nicely'. s'not my fault, most of them never bothered to find out what I was actually like! - so I hate reverse s"Ooops, word censored!"bery.

 

I couldn't agree more, Rosie is not allowed to play in the street - we have a perfectly good back garden.... and the rest too. I come from Hertfordshire, so don't have a Banbury accent - people up here call me posh, but it doesn't bother me; I think it's just because I don't have a regional accent and they can't place me. People like to apply labels, it makes them feel more secure *shrugs*

[susanbb]

The way I see it is, "who am I to judge anyone?"

 

Susan

[beach chick]

a lot of the time the class thing is used as a kind of shorthand for the media anyway - rather than spell out what group they really mean, they just pick the easiest option. it's probably safer that way, because I think what this report was probably referring to was those white boys from poorer backgrounds who dont have parental support in terms of their education. (but you're probably not allowed to say that these days!)

because I bet there are just as many white boys from poorer backgrounds who DO get parental support who succeed...

[Egluntyne]

 

I'm not sure that 'class' matters per se. what I think matters more is behaviour - being able to fit in with the group you are with and behave in a way that is acceptable to them (and also of course to society at large). I think a lot of people today are like chameleons - just look at a teenager talking to his mates, then listen to him with his parents!

 

having said that, I am a complete s"Ooops, word censored!" about certain things. I cannot bear the glottal stop, so when the kids talk about going to a 'par'y' (party) or 'bu''er (butter) I come down on them like a ton of bricks (but I love a proper regional accent). I also have big problems with people that allow their kids to roam the streets at all hours of the day and then come to ask mine to do While I'm at itsomething I don't approve of! at the girls' old school I was thought to be s"Ooops, word censored!"by - because I talk 'nicely'. s'not my fault, most of them never bothered to find out what I was actually like! - so I hate reverse s"Ooops, word censored!"bery.

 

I could have written these two paragraphs myself. The first one sums my view up perfectly!

 

I'm with you 100% on the glottal stop!

 

I have a Manchester accent that you could boil tripe in, and am proud to have it, but I do speak properly, using the correct tenses and I put my "H's" where they belong, and I love to hear a regional accent. There is a world of difference between a regional accent and sloppy speech.

 

I can't bear groovy people like the Tony Blairs of the world who try to put on a phoney "Estuary" accents, especially when speaking down to people whilst trying to appear to be one of them. That is s"Ooops, word censored!"bery.

[bronze]

I come from Hertfordshire, so don't have a Banbury accent - people up here call me posh, but it doesn't bother me; I think it's just because I don't have a regional accent and they can't place me. People like to apply labels, it makes them feel more secure *shrugs*

 

I too come from Hertfordshire and have had exactly the same problem. Especially when I got a job working in the office of a factory in Suffolk. They kept assuming things about me that just didn't exist and saying 'oh but you wouldn't know what that was like' when in fact I had the same background as a lot of them. Parents both worked (Mum off and on) I lived in a 60s town house so nothing special when I was growing up and was now earning a wage so that myself and OH could pay the stupid mortgage on a tiny house. Luckily where I amnow theres quite a fe incomers so I'm not such an abnormality.

[The Dogmother]

Ooo, another thing we have in common - whereabouts in Herts? I come from Elstree (as in film studios)

[Charlottechicken]

I think class matters more to the upper and middle classes, the rest of us are too busy earning a living to think about it

 

I am working class, the product of two parents who grew up in council houses, no inherited wealth whatsoever, and no qualifications either. People I work with are surprised at this as I speak quite nicely (for a Brummie ) and own my own home, car and everything in between. Interestingly, out of the class of 24 people I finished school with, 6 have never worked and continue to live off the benefit system.

 

However, I believe there is a new sub class (of the working class group) developing, and am loathe to try and put a name to if for fear of offending. Working in benefits I probably come in contact with this type more than I would if I didn't work where I do (and know what I know about those I went to school with ).

 

Good manners I feel will get you anywhere though

[beach chick]

I think class matters more to the upper and middle classes, the rest of us are too busy earning a living to think about it

(sorry, that's meant to be a quote, don't know if it worked!)

 

these days, the middle classes are working just as hard as everybody else to earn a living and keep the proverbial wolf from the door... and being taxed on just about everything, including potentially the view from the house we bought with our ill-gotten gains (sorry, the house we bought because it was so falling down that no one else would) coz someone has to pay for the benefits system!!!

sorry, on a bit of a high horse there.

 

I actually dont care what class someone is, what matters is whether they are a nice, good person.

 

Edit Claret - quote sorted

[Charlottechicken]

I think class matters more to the upper and middle classes, the rest of us are too busy earning a living to think about it

 

Sorry it wasn't meant to be offensive more humerous. I couldn't find the correct emoticon, should have used this

[Egluntyne]

Good manners I feel will get you anywhere though

 

Well said!

 

And they cost nowt!

[Charlottechicken]

(sorry, the house we bought because it was so falling down that no one else would)

 

I bought one of those!

Edited June 22, 2007 by Guest

[beach chick]

no worries, wasnt in the least offended!!

maybe we should start a society for the furthering of good manners in Britain?!

[bronze]

Ooo, another thing we have in common - whereabouts in Herts? I come from Elstree (as in film studios)

 

 

I almost don't dare say because it catergorises me again

Harpenden. Which in an odd way was weird as a child, as all my comtemperaries were all pretty wealthy and we were actually just ordinary by todays standards thanks to my Dads (and Mums) very hard work.

[The Dogmother]

Ahhh, I remember nights out in Harpenden, trying to remember the name of the bar we went to though... was it Murphy's???? I had a similar reminiscence with Sheila, who is in St Albans - she's a couple of years older than me, but we must've been out in the same pubs as teenagers...

 

...it's a small forum.

[bronze]

I know the place you mean but I didn't go out in Harpenden. My drinking haunts were in St Albans.

Its amazing th different reactiosn you get from people if you say you're from Harpenden or from St. Albans

[The Dogmother]

I think my reactions are more like fond reminisences of boozy nights out.

[Richard]

This is so hard it makes my brain hurt!

 

I went to University and have what I suppose would be called a professional job. My parents were both school teachers; Dad is from a Norfolk farming/butchering family which we can trace back here in north Norfolk to the 1600s, Mum is a Londoner from a small shopkeeping family.

 

I came back to Norfolk after a while because its where I felt I belonged. I regard myself as a rural working class person. The locals regard me as an oddity (in many ways!) because I claim a Norfolk background but don't have a local accent, and went away to study and work for many years.

 

Round here we are 64% holiday homes, with quite a lot of those houses costing over a million pounds and occupied for a few weeks a year. So the divisions round here are not really class at all, they are more how long you spend here and where you were born - locals; incomers; and holiday home owners.

 

As you can imagine, the social setup is wierd. It would make a fascinating study; looking at the relationships between locals who would probably say in general that they would rather not have the holiday owners here, but depend upon them for their economy - and then the incomers who live here all the time, but aren't local (and may even be retired holiday home owners). Then there's the incomers and holidays who play a big part in local life, and those that don't .....

 

Its wonderful to see - but trying to fit the people into a class structure doesn't work - its more to do with money, old and new, local families or not, permenant resident or not - and any sort of permutation of those that you can imagine!

 

I'll stop drivelling on now - but thanks for starting me thinking about this! As somebody said earlier, it doesn't really matter; what matters is how you behave to other people and how you live your life.

[bronze]

As you can imagine, the social setup is wierd. It would make a fascinating study; looking at the relationships between locals who would probably say in general that they would rather not have the holiday owners here, but depend upon them for their economy - and then the incomers who live here all the time, but aren't local (and may even be retired holiday home owners). Then there's the incomers and holidays who play a big part in local life, and those that don't .....

 

 

I seem to be doing ok. Occasionaly you get the odd person who regards me with suspicion. I'm wondering if I'm acceptable by the locals because my husband was a Norfolk boy and we are settle here not just holidayers. Plus two of my children were born in norfolk (one in suffolk shh). But like you my husband went away and came back again.

[Looney]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread! Class is a tricky issue that's for sure.

 

I was always counted as "posh" because I didn't have a strong local accent (neither parents came from the area and gave me a clip around the ear if I started falling heavily into the local accent ) and I went to the grammar school.....on the other hand, my brother who went to the secondary modern school was never called posh. Never worked that one out!

 

We were seen as trying to be "better" than the neighbours because we had two (or more) cars - but none were less than 10 years old at any time and it was my Dad's hobby to tinker with old cars. He always did all the work on them himself.

 

My Dad joined the forces to avoid going down the pit like his father and my Mum's parents were in the forces because they came from massive families and it was the only way they were assured of getting a hot meal and a bed!

 

I was the first in my family to go to uni and some people in my village stopped talking to me because this meant I thought I was better than them apparently

 

I totally agree with the people that say that manners and respect are the most important things.

[AnnieP]

I've really enjoyed this thread too! I'm not going to even try to categorise myself, as it would be far too difficult. I think we are many things to many people. I agree with Richard on this. It depends where you are, and who is looking at you doesn't it? Where we live, we are very "average" as our few neighbours are all similar: mainly professional jobs and none of us are "locals", all on similar incomes I expect.

Where I work, I am sure most of my parents would think me as thinking myself "superior", due to my position, accent (not local), the car I drive , clothes I wear etc.

 

It is just perception isn't it? They certainly wouldn't know that my father worked in a factory all his life and my mother cleaned, that my dad is the youngest of 13, that one of my brothers has tattoos etc etc etc.....I am not at all sure what classifies it these days, but guess it is based sadly on perceived wealth, posessions, appearance and size of house.

[Cinnamon]

Coming from Henley-on-Thames,which is probably percieved as an Upper Class area,I find this a really interesting topic.

 

During Regatta (which is in 2 weeks ) the town is full of the most awful Hooarys.Their behaviour is terrible & their language, with their loud braying voices, would make your hair curl.They do not regulate this foul language in frount of children either.

Of course not all people from this class are like that (thank goodness)

 

I would class ourselves as an average family.We work for a living....we have to.....our children go to a regular school,we drive a nice new car but it wasn't vastly expensive.

 

However one thing I do pride myself on is that I have brought my children up to speak properly, to have good table manners & to be polite to others, adults in particular.

I cannot bear to hear poorly pronounced speech & I cannot tell you the amount of times I have had to bite my toungue as a friens of one of my daughters asks for Bu'er for her bread

 

I was lucky enough a couple of years ago to have 2 cleaning ladies, who were lovely but spoke poorly.Once one of them said she had to post a Le'er after work & Devon picked her up on it saying "I think you mean Letter".

 

I could have died ,but was quite proud of her at the same time