alderandash Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Hello, This is the first time I've posted, but something really horrible has just happened and I would love some advice. We got 4 chickens on Saturday - today we went to feed them some early evening corn, and found one (Poppy, Rhode Rock) on the floor with two of the others attacking her. She had a deep wound on her back. We separated her, put her somewhere comfortable and gave her water and applied wound spray - but when we came back to check on her she had died. I don;t know if we could have prevented it - I know chickens do turn on each other sometimes, and if one starts attacking others will join in. The 4 had lived together previously at the breeders as part of a bit larger group. Since they arrived here, there had been some pecking as they sorted out pecking order. One (a Light Sussex called Billy) worried me a bit - she seemed to be fairly remorselessly going after the 2 at the bottom of the pecking order - Poppy and my Bluebell (Hettie.) I showed an experienced chicken-keeping friend who said she thought it was pecking order issues and would resolve itself. They seemed much calmer yesterday, so I thought all was well - then today, this happened. I called the breeder (who has sold hens without problem to other people we know) - she mentioned that beak trimming was an option tho not nice. I don't know what to do. Now the 2 cuplrits (Billy and a hybrid White Leghorn mix) have done this, do they get a taste for it, as it were? Is it a behaviour that persists? I don't want to fear for my one remaining gentle hen every time we're not around. I know there are bumper bits / beak trimming options, but to be honest I would rather rehome the culprits if I can. Tho that is complicated by the fact that the 2 culprits are the two chosen my two young children....One of whom has gone off his hen in a big way, the other can't bear the idea of parting with hers. (We'd explained to them that 'things happen' with chickens - foxes, pecking order squabbles etc - but they are finding the idea of cannibalism very hard!!!) If we use bumber bits or (gulp) beak trim, can they still forage? We have some land and really wanted them to be as free-range as possible. I know a move can upset chickens and cause stress. I think they were being kept in good conditions - not in a traditional hen house/eglu, but in a large (4m x 5m approx) outbuiling, bedded on straw, with plenty of air/light, perches, 2 nest boxes, ad lib feed of the brand they were used to, extra greens - very similar to the setup they came from. We had not let them 'out' yet as we want them to free range and the breeder suggested keeping them in for a few days so they knew where home was. Anyway - apologies for the very long post. I would be very grateful for any advice. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olly Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Firstly, I'm really sorry to hear this - a distressing experience for any hen-keeper but especially with your first hens. It is relatively rare for this to happen, but once the bully hen (or hens) have drawn blood they are attracted to it, and will keep on pecking and sadly sometimes it can result in the death of a hen. It doesn't necessarily mean that this will happen to another hen, it may be that this one was very submissive or just unlucky. I'm inclined to say leave them to it but of course that's what you did in this case and I don't think that it was bad advice, in most cases it is just a matter of them sorting out the pecking order. Are you around during the day or are you out at work? If you can be around for a day or two then I'd just check regularly so that if there are any bullying problems you can act quickly. Do you know which hen was the main aggressor? Sometimes separating the bully for a bit can bring them down a bit. I doubt if it was stress, your living conditions sound fine for this number of hens. I'm afraid it's just one of those things, the fact that they were all in one flock at the breeder doesn't help because they have to establish the order in their new flock. Bumper bits will still let them eat and forage, and they could be the answer but I'd be inclined to let things run and see how they are. If they can free range safely, then the picked-on hen will have more chance to get away and that might help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plum Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 I haven't got anything to add to what Olly says except that I am really sorry, what a horrid start to keeping chickens. As you only got them on Saturday perhaps the breeder will take them back and exchange them for gentle breeds. I'm sure you can string your daughter a story and she'll bond with another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparkysmum Posted September 5, 2012 Share Posted September 5, 2012 Really sorry to hear this, must have been dreadful. Great advice from Olly. wishing you happier chicken keeping times ahead. Alli x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alderandash Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 (edited) Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply, and for the advice. I've been out in the dark moving the two that I think are the offenders into a separate area. I'm pretty sure I know which 2 - when we found poor Poppy, the White Leghorn was still pecking at her; and Billy (White Sussex) was nearby - I wonder if Billy started it tho, as she was the one I was worried about being overly aggressive. And Poppy did seem particularly submissive - if the others pecked at her she'd just sit and let them - is that usual?? We don't have a spare coop so the terrible two are in a bit of a heath- robinson setup, but at least now we've got some breathing space to sort out what to do. Poor old Hettie was a bit freaked out to be left on her own, but at least she's safe. I'm very glad to know something like this is uncommon... I don't think I want many more days like this one... Thankyou for the advice re beak trimming / bumper bits - both of which sound pretty alarming for a newbie like me to deal with (and not so nice for the hens - at least the trimming, anyway.) I'm around a lot in the day (and OH works from home). So tomorrow we will let everyone out together and see how things go. I feel so bad I didn't hear anything today - usually I can hear any clucks/squawks, but the combines were out harvesting nearby - not noisy near the hens, but enough background noise that I didn't notice anything odd. We'd been up there a couple of times tho and all seemed fine. Plum - you mentioned gentler breeds...Are some breeds / hybrids known to be much less aggressive? (I'd love to know so I can choose more wisely next time!!) The two culprits are a Light Sussex, and a 'mostly' white Leghorn' (ie not pure breeds). I've heard Leghorns can be flighty and skittish and not especially 'easy', but I'd never heard of them being especially aggressive...?? (We were OK with the flightyness, we thought it might actually be a good thing if she's out and about free ranging!) I've a couple of friends with various sorts of Sussex and they've all seemed to be sweethearts. So I thought we were OK! Thank you all so much for the sympathy and advice, I really really appreciate it. Edited September 5, 2012 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alderandash Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 I've just read a bit about beak trimming - sounds grim, and difficult to do correctly anyway. Plus DEFRA is trying to ban it? So I'm very glad my gut reaction - and Olly's advice - was 'no'! I'd rather rehome. One article I found mentioned that White Leghorns are much more prone to 'cannibalism' than some other breeds... Anyway - I think I'd better get some sleep. RIP poor Poppy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlina Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 More condolences for what must have been a horrible experience. My thought is that perhaps Poppy was a little unwell/weak in some way anyway, and that's why this ended as badly as it did. The shock may have been what killed her if she was already fragile/under the weather. I'm not an expert, but have never seen or heard of a healthy chicken allowing herself to be pecked. I do believe that animals have a sense of such weakness in others and turn on them in ways which can otherwise be absolutely out of character. It may well be that your hens will be fine from now on. I'd suggest leaving it at least a few days before you make a decision - this must have been a horrible shock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 How horrible for you. I am very sorry to read about it. It is possible that the victim had an underlying illness (they are very good at hiding these things) and often hens will turn on a sick one. I've never heard of a hen being pecked to death in in this situation. I wouldn't go down the beak trimming route, but would possibly resort to bumper bits if things don't settle. Squabbles usually break out over food issues, so I'd get them used to sharing treats, and make sure that there are several food and water stations so that the top hen can't prevent the others from eating. Boxes and perches dotted around the place, to serve as escape hatches can help too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plum Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Well there are gentler breeds but you're right your breeds aren't aggressive as far as I know. When there is a wound which might have happened during normal pecking order troubles most chickens will peck at it. This is not an aggressive act, it's instinct and horrible to see but perfectly normal. It's just so sad and totally unfortunate that you weren't aware at an early stage. If I have a spot on my leg mine will peck me Hope today goes well and I would put them together at the weekend and evenings when you can keep an eye on things. It would be better now to have them together now but if you are frightened it may happen then if you can have them so they can see eachother. Check them each day for any wounds and disguise them with sudocreme, purple spray etc., Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abwsco Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 How awful for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs_B Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 So sorry to hear what happened to your new flock! Must have been terrible to see I think posters have already given amazing advise. If any of your hens get pecked on, like others have said, use sprays as soon as the skin breaks because chickens go crazy when they see a wound. I have also used saddles to help feathers grow back and have had success with those - so these might be worth keeping in mind. I had an issue with pecking/bullying and from what I found with reading about it, Bumper Bits are 'kinder' to use than trimming the chicken's beak as you can take the bit off but the beak won't grow back. Hope things settle down for you so you can enjoy chicken keeping! x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chortle Chook Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 That is so dreadful! Poor you. I bet you feel like ditching the whole hen keeping business but one thing, it can only get better now The only advice I can add to the very good advice already given, is that I would try not to have your remaining gentle hen on her own as when they are back together again that will automatically put her at the bottom of the order. I'd try to separate the bullies and possibly put the Sussex (certainly usually rather nice hens) in with your gentle girl, so brining Billy down a peg or too when they are re-united. Some breeds are, by the way, gentler than others though they tend to be the more maternal ones who like being broody and so lay fewer eggs e.g. Orpingtons, Australorps. Barnvelders are supposed to be nice while being good egg layers, (but then so too are Sussex. That is a puzzle) The thing to bear in mind is that for chickens the health of the flock is paramount and what their survival depends on so anythhing that threatens the flock (e.g. a sickly hen who could pass disease) is instinctively ostracised. Usually it is not really canibalism in its true sense i.e. a desire to eat one's own species, just an urge to kill off the threat. Most group species act in this way. The nearest alalogy I can think of in our human world is the way people used to treat lepers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollyripkim Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 I feel so sorry for you, what a terrible start to chicken keeping. Haven't got any advice but hope things work out and they settle down, hope it doesnt put you off as its so lovely when it goes well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alderandash Posted September 6, 2012 Author Share Posted September 6, 2012 Thank so much for kindness and suggestions. We've had a bit of a hectic day sorting things out. The breeder was wonderful, gave lots of advice (and replacement for poor Poppy) - we now have another Bluebell. The breeder thought the two Bluebells could band together -they are gentle, but larger than Rhode Rocks, so less likely to be picked on. We have kept the bluebells together for today, then will maybe try to introduce one of the fearsome twosome at a time, perhaps. Thanks Chubby Chook for the sage words - 'cannibalism' makes it sounds so extreme. I've been reminding myself (and the kids) that what happened was just 'natural' behaviour - extreme, but natural ie hens responding to an injury, a bit like a shark feeding frenzy - ie just an instinct, not malice. I'm trying my best to forgive the culprits! We will try to reintegrate everyone slowly and keep fingers crossed. Will let you know how it goes....Thanks again, you've all been a huge help. (We have 'chickeny' friends and neighbours who've all been fab too - what a nice crowd!) So it's been a rough couple of days, but we feel we've learned a lot and hopefully things will get better from here.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackian Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I am so glad this has not put you off chicken keeping , I am sure now that you will enjoy them with far more ups than downs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
