Diggory Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Hello everyone I'm looking for some advice. I live in a rural area and I have noticed that my neighbour keeps 5 bantams in a standard Omlet cage, about 2 metres by 0.8 metres by my reckoning. She *never* lets them out. While I appreciate that foxes etc are a problem, I cannot help feeling that she is unwittingly being cruel. I am not an expert though, and that is why I was wondering if anyone could tell me whether the chickens will indeed be suffering from cramped conditions. If they are, what do you suppose I should do about it? I apologise if I come across as a busybody here, but all I am concerned about is the chickens' welfare - the fact that they do not belong to me is surely irrelevant in such a matter. Also, I am 100% sure that the chickens are never let out, as my partner and I work different shift patterns so at least one of us is at home to observe most if not all of the time. Many thanks in anticipation for your assistance here. Best wishes, Diggory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollie333 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I think five bantams will be cramped.. Why don't you ask them if they free-range, and if not, why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchanted Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Hello Diggory I would be concerned too. Have they been there long? Though I am fairly new to hen keeping I can tell you that from my experience and from what I have learnt so far, the more space the hens have the better their health both in terms of them being able to co-exist with less fighting, and therefore less stress and physically if exposed to less concentration of poo, they pick up less parasites and diseases, ergo happier, healthier hens. DEFRAs guidelines for free range chickens, is they should have at least 1 sq m of scratching ground per hen and access to daylight and fresh air during their awake hours ie between dawn and dusk. So those that cannot free range full time in back gardens need to have runs where the floor space reflects those guidelines. Even if they come out to free range in the evenings they need a proper sized run for the rest of the time. My hens can only free range for the odd hour when I'm/we're in the garden, because foxes are lurking about, so they have extended runs. Some people use electrified fencing to protect larger areas for free-ranging. It maybe that your neighbour fell foul of (often) misleading advertising which focuses on the size of the hen house, and neglects to point out the run size is as, if not more, important. If they have not been there long, maybe your neighnour is planning to extend, if you read any threads regarding runs most people end up extending or upsizing in some way. Are you not on speaking terms? If you find this is not a temporary situation with no plans to improve the hens space or you simply cannot talk to your neighbour then you should explain your concerns to the RSPCA. If 5 hens spend much more than an hour a day in a run that size they will be suffering. The hens at the bottom of the pecking order will likely be picked on more out of boredom by the others and they will have nowhere to hide and they are all being exposed to a high concentration of poo/disease. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
migsy Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) I would try to get to know your neighbour. You could just have a chat about chickens in general. Perhaps she is worried about free ranging and you could persuade her that it is good for them etc. I'd talk to her informally first just to test the water before you make any formal complaints. I really don't think that the RSPCA would be interested as chickens are kept in far worse conditions on farms. Also, that run would be OK for 2 full sized birds so it would therefore be OK for 4 bantams so she is not way off the mark with 5. I like to see hens FR but I don't think what you are describing is that horrendous, it is just not that good. I wouldn't keep chickens in so little space myself though. Edited June 19, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I guess it depends on the bantam breed, some are bigger than others As a general rough idea four bantams would be ok in a standard run, I have had that myself and they were all just fine Five may well be pushing it though, in saying that if they were small bantams like Belgians they'd be absolutely fine, even Pekins could probably cope at a push Whilst its not ideal I wouldnt think it particularly cruel unless they were very big Orpington bantams, as long as they are being taken care of I doubt there is much you can do, they will certainly be ok as they do adjust to their surroundings pretty quickly, they'd thrive more with a bigger space but sometimes its not an option I never let my chooks out to free range unless I am there to supervise, risk from foxes is just too great The DEFRA recommendation of 1sqm of space per hen is based on large fowl not bantams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olly Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I think there's a big difference between 'ideal environment' - few of us achieve that, due to fox risk, working hours, other demands - and 'cruelty'. The Eglu run is designed to be suitable for two hens to be in all the time if necessary, of course most of us like to see our hens out of the run but I'm fairly sure that the run meets welfare standards. Whether five bantams = two large fowl, I don't know. Of course you could call the RSPCA but that would be very distressing for your neighbour, if in all other respects she us looking after the hens properly. She may have her reasons for not letting them out of the run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Why not fall into a general conversation about hen keeping with your neighbour and ask a few gentle, leading questions. You could slip the information about space per hen into it. I doubt very much that the RSPCA would be interested unless the conditions are filthy or the hens are not being given adequate food or water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jools Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I agree with Olly and Eglutyne. There are lots of chickens kept in less than ideal situations but that doesn't mean the RSPCA can I(or should) do anything about it. Sadly chickens also get used to how they're kept and those five bantams know no different, so unless they're ill or injured, they're probably quite happy. I wouldn't be though, I'd hate to live next door to that. I applaud your concern but I honestly don't know how you resolve your worries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diggory Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 Thank you all for your replies. My next course of action will be to gently broach the subject with my neighbour. I shall post the outcome for those who might be interested. Thanks again for your time. Diggory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchanted Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Good to hear you plan to talk to your neighbour and looking forward to hearing the outcome. BTW I have done some more research into official guidelines re hen keeping both on the DEFRA website and the RSPCA (who does have policies on farm animals) however none of their documents are very clear nor give definitive information on keeping garden hens. I think this is a serious issue for garden hen keepers as many can unwittingly buy runs that are too small for what they have in mind. (or they push their, and the hens', luck by over stocking) The booklet/pdfs' information is aimed at those keeping flocks in outdoor housing and free-ranging or indoors/ living in barns, and separate guidelines for organic hens. It's unclear, for example for free-ranging hens, when coop floor space is quoted as 600-750 squared centimetres per egg laying hen, does this mean the house only or the house and run ? The run space is not defined seperately. BTW an A4 size sheet of paper is 630 squared centimetres. You decide whether you think that is enough space for a garden chicken to live day in day out. I suspect that the 'ideal' is full-time-free-ranging, which of course few of us can manage, so that must mean 1 sq metre per hen is not an 'idea'l but the barest minimum. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I dont get too hung up on space requirements, many of these are based on industrial set ups and cannot be related to a flock of six or so garden chooks I go by whether my birds seem happy or not, if they have enough room to move around, a bit of diversion, are in good condition and laying then I am happy that they are happy I'd rather them have a smallish pen than have a large one that isnt secure or is very exposed to rain and wind Some of my pens have more room per chook than others, I guage each situation on its own merits and am not about to get out there are start measuring and obsessing over things Common sense should prevail at all times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craftyhunnypie Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I have some naughty pekins who insist on cramming in one eglu at night...7 of them! Naughty naughty! But as I am very keen on keeping them clean & pest free, I don't worry. They can go where they like in the daytime, the little monkeys...& will soon have 12 acres to conquer & chicken dance on. Emma.x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
migsy Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 One of mine is free ranging into next door's garden now. I only noticed today - apparently she has done it a few times. Ooops. Sorry to divert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I agree with Redwing's post completely. I help manage a little chicken project down at a local school, where 3 Pekin bantams live in an Eglu with a standard run. There is oodles of room. We could sneak two more bantams in very easily. They all pile on top of each other in the nest box at night, and so in reality, we could accommodate another half dozen in the Eglu itself! Prescriptive info about stocking density doesn't really apply to back yard hens. So long as the hens are happy and well cared for, I really wouldn't worry. My personal criteria is 'can they get up to a short trot?' If the answer is yes, then they have enough room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plum Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Agree with others if there are no behaviour problems they are ok, but your neighbour will learn if there are and make adjustments. Sort of thing you'd see are pecking and fighting. Diggory if it's still making you feel uneasy why not make friends with your neighbour and show an interest. Offer to look after them when away. Then you could offer to buy an extension to the run without feeling you are causing neighbour relationship problems. Could go badly wrong of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WitchHazel Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I'm not sure that there is a problem. As others have said, if the hens are healthy and laying then they are probably happy. You don't mention whether the Eglu is kept in one place all the time, or whether it gets moved about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diggory Posted June 26, 2011 Author Share Posted June 26, 2011 Hi everyone I'm sorry it's taken me so long to update, but I wanted to wait until I bumped into the neighbour naturally, over the garden fence, rather thank knocking on her door as if I were the chicken police. So I spoke to her today, starting off on unrelated topics (we have spoke one or two times before, she's only been here a month or so), and then going on to her chickens. She's obviously fairly fond of them, and yes she does move the cage around, so must have some degree of concern over their welfare. (Incidentally why is moving the cage around good for the chickens' welfare? Is it because it gives them fresh ground to scratch etc?) When I gently asked if they had enough space she cooled quite considerably. She said they were fine and I had a distinct feeling that I was being regarded as an interfering busybody. I then took the plunge and said that another of our neighbours who used to keep chickens had a bigger run that they were selling for a good price (which is true - I wasn't just making stuff up as I went along!) and she politely withheld her interest from this, saying that it probably wasn't fox-proof. Which is of course probably true! So it didn't go too well - she sees no problem with the way she keeps her chickens, and judging from some of the replies I have had, she may not be too far from the truth here. So I don't know where to go from here - I may have to leave it at that. I am heartened that though the chickens are not in paradise they may not be actually *suffering*. If things change in the future I will of course let those who are interested know. Would anyone here still have the mind to pursue the matter, or would they do as I seem to be doing, and let the matter rest? Thanks Diggory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia W Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 If she has perches in there and is making use of the " upper space" that helps. Maybe is she hasn't done this, you could "find" a suitable branch/piece of wood, Ikea shoe rack and ask her if she'd like it for them. There are loads of pictures on the forum of runs being made more attractive and useful in that way you could show her. By the way, is she a Forum member? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchanted Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 You say she has only been there a month, so did she only just get the chickens a month ago too ? I don't think bantams are used for egg laying, therefore not ex-bat rescued hens and so they were probably better off were they came from. You obviously feel or think that the hens might not be doing well being cooped up in a small space 24/7, that is why you posted on this forum after all, and got a range of views. Accusing her of 'cruelty' might be inappropriate but I think she is probably neglecting/failing to provide a healthy and safe environment for her pets. Would anyone hesitate to contact the RSPCA if a neighbour's 5 dogs were left locked up in a small yard 24/7, 365, what is the difference. The RSPCA do not remove pets or send their owners to jail as a first port of call. You can request anonimity and they may choose not to investigate but at least you have shared the worry with those charged with keeping pets safe. If they share your concerns and choose to investigate and then if they decide that the hens needs are not being met they will work with the owner to improve the situation. I think you have handled it very sensitively and I agree that for now maybe, you just monitor the situation. I would hope that, as you touched a raw nerve bringing up the run size, she herself must be aware there is an issue here. And maybe your prompt will encourage her to extend the run. Sooner rather than later Yes moving the run around reduces the amount of bugs they are exposed to from each others faeces, and of course they get fresh grass ( while you still have grass) but that still leaves the problem of overcrowding behavious- boredom- bullying and nowhere to bolt. I hope it all works out soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
migsy Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 I think you have done all you can do. She is your neighbour and I would just let it lie now. Neither you nor I would keep chickens in a small run full time but I doubt that the chickens are suffering. I really don't think you should mention it to your neighbour again as it would be very unpleasant if you fell out with her. IMHO it is just not worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squiffs Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 personally I would go berserk if someone called into question my animal husbandry - mentioning the RSPCA - when they themselves would need to read up on chicken keeping. Just as in the 'interfering neighbour' thread I would have severe objections to a neighbour deciding when my chickens should be let out and when they should be given treats, my sentiments here are the same. I also think it's outrageous that omlet sell an eglu for 'up to 4 chickens' and then makes you pay out an extra £100 for 1m of run extension (when if my chicken maths is right, it would cost 200 to extend the run for the whole 4 chickens, as a 2metre run is intended for 2 chickens). That being said - there must be a reason she only has 5 in there when the adverts say it can fit 6. Possibly because she feels that's the amount that can live there comfortably? I know I wouldn't buy more chickens than I thought I could comfortably house. And I definitely would buy as many as I could comfortably house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jools Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Well done on tackling it in such a sensitive and sensible way. You're neighbours and getting on (or at least not falling out) has to be high on the list of priorities. In your shoes, I'd let it lie now. Five bantams in a 2msq run isn't ideal but it's a long way from cruel, especially if she moves it around giving them fresh ground to enjoy. Compare their situation to commercially kept poultry and their existence begins to look a lot rosier. As I said before, it's what they're used to and if they're happy and healthy, there's not really a problem. I'd rather see them free-ranging rather than confined, but if that's not possible because of foxes then they're better off in their moveable run. Sooooo, are you thinking of venturing into the wonderful world of chicken keeping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 I really would urge caution. Have a look at this thread, which views things from the perspective of the person whose husbandry is being called into question by a neighbour . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WitchHazel Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 If the lady is moving the run around, then I think her standard of chicken welfare is quite high. Her Girlies are getting fresh ground and grass, which is considerably better than when chickens are kept in a fixed run - whatever the size that fixed run might be. Hens in really well run places (like Wernlas) are often kept with four five six full sized chickens in the same space as an Eglu and standard run. The reason this isn't a problem, is because the coops are moved to fresh grass frequently. Your neighbout only has 5 banties, she moves the run, honestly it doesn't sound at all like a cruelty case to IMHO. I do think it's great that you care enough to keep an eye out and to talk to your neighbour. (I really do mean that). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchanted Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 .... there must be a reason she only has 5 in there when the adverts say it can fit 6. ... A point I made earlier with regard to new chicken keepers falling foul of misleading advertising. It is not the run, only the house that is suitable for up to six bantams. With a classic eglu the extensions are £50 per metre add on, one per extra hen. I wish that all hen house sellers were much more honest and much clearer about how many hens their run space is suitable for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
