Single hen

[Jules.]

re health & safety at school

 

I have just collected Ethan from his playschool which is located at the primary school where Alexander goes, but not actually run by the school. As I waited at the secure gate for him I could see that the school hall door was open & it was full of children sitting on the floor, presumably watching a video as term finishes tomorrow. This is less than 20 metres from the road, mind you,anyone could have walked in there & being the dutiful ex-governor that I am I went into the office to say very politely & nicely I was concerned about the door being open re security, something I feel very strongly about. The receptionist, some one I know quite well said she would pass the messsage & my concern on.

Lo & behold, a minute later one of the v nice teaching assistants came around to where I was standing & told me that the DH wanted to talk to me... I panicked thinkg that Alexander had done something v bad at school, so I collected Ethan & went to the office. DH came out & said that I had asked to see her.... I said no, but I had just mentioned in the office about my concern about security. She then (in a tone of voice that said how dare you) told me that 18 months ago she had done a full health & safety risk assessment with the council & that she was fully aware that this particular door was open to all & sundry, but that there were 8 staff in the hall with the children & as such they were all perfectly safe!!!!It was too hot in there not to have the door open, & did I know that school are spending thousands over the summer hols for air conditioning to be installed in some areas of school so that doors do not have to be opened for fresh air?

when I tried to get my point across that 8 teachers were of no use against someone with a gun (worse case senario) she said that the risk had been assessed & the threat of children fainting from the heat was outweighed by that.

I feel like a 5 year old now, but still not happy with her argument. I am not good with face to face confrontation, & this came totally unexpected to me.Alexander has one more year to go there, & if he were not happy there & not doing really well (he got level 5s on his report) I would seriously think about moving him.

Ethan is already earmarked for a different school, but I was thinking about continuing him here as he loves his playschool & all is familiar to him.

 

What do others think about this? Am I going over the top? Is it acceptable for schools to be open like this in hot weather.... BTW it takes me an extra 10 mins to walk to collect Ethan from playschool as I have to walk all the way around to the main entrance, as the gate to the long path which is just off my estate is locked during the day for security & only open at the beginning & end of each day!!!!!

Edited July 12, 2007 by Guest

[Cinnamon]

Jules I am not a Teacher, but heres my thoughts anyway.

Is the Hall not in an are which is fenced off from the outside world?

At our primary School the school gates stay locked until 3.30,the parents wait outside,then they are let in when the 3.30 bell goes.

Therefore doors can be left open,as the grounds are secure.

 

I think that if it was completely open to the outside world then yes you do have a valid point & were quite right to raise it.

The way the teacher spoke to you was wrong- she obviously made you feel like a pupil getting a telling off

No parent should be spoken to like that (sore point - I was reduced to tears once by Devons primary teacher when we withdrew her from a weekend event so we could travel to the west country to visit my Mum who had just had a brain op )

 

You are right- 8 adults are no match for one nutter with a gun

 

Let us know how this develops.....

Edited July 12, 2007 by Guest

[Jules.]

The hall has a small side access door which opens onto the school car park area, it was this door which was open. There is no fence at this part of the school.

 

I was trying to amend my heading, as I realise that everyone can have input into this one, not just teachers (but I thought teachers might be in the know & therefore able to help me)

[Helly Welly]

We too have a school hall which has open doors for the after school clubs, especially basketball as the children get so hot. I hadn't really considered how insecure this was until now, i completely see what you mean. There is only one teacher there for the club too. The doors are not behind the security fencing, in fact we all go wandering in to watch our kids for the last five minutes. Not only that, they get changed in the hall, so my daughter is frequently stood there in her underwear whilst parents are walking in and out. Might have a word tonight, i often tell her not to bother getting changed to save her the embarassment.

[moochoo]

I think you were right to raise your concerns but if there's a fence between the open door and the road then surely they are as safe there as they would be in a playground at any school. I do feel quite strongly about children being wrapped up in cotton wool and in the big scheme of things if you are going to get mowed down by a mad gun man then that could happen on your weekly shop in a supermarket.

Everything we do carries a small percentage of risk.

I'm probably going to be in the minority with my views on this subject but the school and teachers will always have pupils safety in mind with whatever they do.

[Helly Welly]

There is no fence between the door and the road at our school. I agree about not wrapping them up in cotton wool, but our school won't let us video the Christmas play but is quite happy for my daughter to undress by an open door! Sometimes the curtains are open too so she could be seen from the road.

[gooner.girl]

I can see your point Jules but to give a teachers view - I teach PE and Games at a small primary age independant school and we use a public field/park for our games lessons - anyone can wander through - its far from ideal (and i know many other schools that do this as well) Surely thats more dangerous? What about using a public leisure centre for swimming lessons? Lots of schools do that - i would say that is no more unsafe then an open door....

 

Teachers can be very condesending towards parents, i know - but i have seen a fair bit of abuse back the other way as well - maybe she had been dealing with parents all morning and was at the end of her tether - its the end of term and i know i have been! (not that i am saying it was right for her to talk to you like that!)

 

I don't have a strong point of view about this. Can see pro's and cons either way. All i would say is when i was at primary school (15 years ago ) it would never have been an issue. Is it health and safety gone mad? or has it gone mad for a valid reason? I don't know the answer - just musing out loud....

[starboyhull]

Hi,

 

As a non parent maybe I shouldnt comment as I have no idea how you feel.....But that said I can understand what you mean about security, but also if you had got a call from the school asking you to pick up your child as they had fainted from the heat or whatever then there probably would still be a thread on here saying why didnt they think to open the door........The teacher shouldnt have spoken to you like they did and probably could have explained it a bit better......

 

I hope that came across how I meant it to and not rudely.....

[Jules.]

I think what I was trying to say originally is that when my son is in school I expect the school to be locked up & as secure as it can be during school hours. I was surprised more than anything to see the hall door wide open today, with nothing between the children and the road. I could not have left the school without giving my concerns to school about security- can you imagine how I would have felt if something had happened there today?

One thing that makes me is that the children were only packed in the hall like sardines today because they were watching TWO end of term children's full length feature films.... and school advices us that come September if we want to take our children out for a holiday in term-time then the absence will be unauthorised, & the £100 weekly fine has also been bandied about.

I have spoken to my friend about this, & she wondered if my comments to the school receptionist had been mis-quoted to the DH? Maybe so.

 

I take on the point about children being vulnerable when they are at the baths for their swimmimg lessons (our school actually walks the children back to the school afterwards), but that is something that I was aware of at the time & I had signed a permission slip for. I have not signed a slip for the school to be left open to all & sundry walking in in the warm weather , if they should so choose.

[jellyb100]

I wouldn't worry if there were that many members of staff in the room with them- they will be keeping a close eye on them. Schools are incredibly hot at this time of year and it can be unbearable with so many hot and sticky children and no air. Anyone could come along and shoot children through the fence if they were out to play or climb over if they really wanted to!

 

I would love to know which school has enough money to install aircon - wow!

[chelsea]

Im not a mother either, but at the end of the day your are the children's mum and you want whats best/safest for your children...anyone will understand that. Dont worry about the way she spoke to you, you are right to voice your concerns as otherwise the worry would eat away at you. Imagine if you didnt say anything

 

At least you got if off your chest and the teacher is aware of your opinion.

 

Like Cinnamon, when I collect my youngest newphew from the local school I have to wait for both school gates to be opened before I can get anywhere near the school complex/playground.

[xScrunchee]

Hi Jules,

Just wanted to add my bit for what it's worth

 

I would feel exactly the same as you!! How on earth can they justify leaving a door open which is accessable from the road??

Yes the weather has been warm, I understand that if the hall gets too hot and sticky the children are at risk from fainting bla, bla, bla.

If it really gets that hot in there perhaps they should have reconsidered allowing the children to watch a film.

Maybe they should have thought of a different activity for the children to do which would have been better than 'risking' their lives by allowing any Tom, Dick or Harry (appologies to any Toms, Dicks or Harrys reading this ) to walk into the building-grab a child and hold them at knife/gun point or whatever!! The world has gone mad and it's not unheard of for loonies to hold children hostage or gun them all down!!

Of course this can happen in supermarkets etc but in my opinion when a parent sends their child to school they are quite within their rights to expect the school staff to do everything within their power to make sure that the children are safe and secure on the school grounds.

 

When my daughter went to school and I had a problem with the main gate being wide open all day for 'deliveries' I was told by the headteacher that she does not allow Paediophiles (sp) into her school so I need not worry!!!!!

What an amazing woman eh? Not only must she have spent from 9am untill 3pm watching the gate-she could also spot a paediophile at 100 paces!!

 

Anyway, just wanted to let you know that I too would have commented and I don't think you're being over the top at all. In fact maybe you could take this matter to the board of governers or something as the point you are making should be heard!!

[Jules.]

Forgot to mention.... the hall does have opening top windows either side

I didn't notice if these were open at the time- I presume they were.

 

Jay I agree with you about the children perhaps doing a different activity than watching films in the hall & "wasting" two learning days.... that's why I wrote about holidays in term time from September being unauthorised. If the school can allow children to watch films instead of learning, why can't they allow precious family holidays? I do think that the children need to wind down from school for the last few days of term, but in an educational way, rather than bring lessons to a complete abrupt stop- Alexander took games in today. Many children will have already seen these films & perhaps been bored by them being made to watch them again....

[kannie]

Jules I feel so sad reading this. Maybe its because I'm from an older generation from you: what has the world come to?! The risk of a terrible massacre happening in your sons school is very, very small.

 

The Dunblane murderer - Thomas Hamilton - had been planning this massacre for possibly up to 2 years. He had left home with 4 guns and pliers: there is no way a closed door would have stopped him. It was not an opportunistic killing at all.

 

Obviously terrible attacks like this make the news - and so they should - but actually most of them are in America where the gun laws are very different. Since this happened the government here has tightened up laws on guns and security checks around people working with children - which Hamilton did - massively. And I as far as I can see there haven't been any gun massacres in British schools since.

 

I agree that teachers and parents have a duty to protect, but I can't help thinking that other things (like speeding traffic) pose far greater risks.

[Sheilaz]

Phew, I thought just this when I first read the post but don't know how to word a reply, so I'll just agree with you, word for word Kannie.

 

Please don't be offended Jules, nothing against you or your views, just that mine are totally different, & yes, it saddened me too, thinking how much some attitudes have changed in less than a generation.

 

I'd much rather that a school had it's doors open (with staff present) than installed air conditioning!

 

The thing about massacres is that they happen randomly in an act which is totally irrational and incomprehensible to most people. So, it is never going to be prevented by rational measures!

Think of 100 million possible risk situations and the next tragedy will take place in the 100, 000, 001 way that you didn't allow for.

 

Having a system that prevents intruders entering the building unnoticed is a sensible precaution.

But, thereafter worrying about all possible dangers is unhealthy for both parents & children.

The head may have appeared abrupt because she felt she was being criticised, it must be hard if you feel parents don't support your actions.

 

Despite being older, I'm not out of touch, Esther is only 11. I can honestly say that I haven't worried that she wasn't safe in all that time, yet I love her more than anything and couldn't bear anything to happen.

 

Fresh air, freedom, fun & common sense are all you need.

 

Jules, please just take this all as food for thought, I'm not having a go, it's just 2 opposing parenting styles.

It is hard speaking up, I've only learnt to have that confidence in very recent years, and will still blub if I feel misunderstood , so don't give up!

[SarahJo]

errr .. where do I start .

 

I work at lunchtime at Ben and Joe's school and am the only "staff member" that approaches ANY person crossing the playground at lunchtime. The Nursery drop offs prefer to cut across than walk round - and this puts the toddlers at danger, as well as the playing children, as adults are accessing the area of play at will.

 

I enter the school through an unlocked "hall" door - and do have echoes of the past . I was giving a presentation to cardilogists at a hospital in Glasgow, when the news of Dunblane broke - many of the audience had children at the school . I too had lived just outside Stirling for 18yrs, and a good friend of mine was a police officer 1st on scene.

 

I do security at "Our" school, but then again - how protected do we make our children - tough balnce and tough call .

 

Our gates are open, and we are not allowed to "chase" children if they chose to abscond . Luckily no-one has so far - in reality are your children likely to be ok anyway ( ie generally well behaved ). The only other thing to do is as a parent, make them "gently" aware of situations that could happen if a bad person comes into any childhood situation, and try to help them have a course of action if this arises. .

 

I have had to do this with Ben(6) and Joe(4) as a result of older children approaching them and being inapropriate, whilst walking our dog in a leisure area. I have always had them in veiw - but if children want to be nasty they can be - same goes for adults. Having said that I cannot be with them every second, despite wanting to protect them for the world.

 

I agree with your initial thoughts - but things will not change - we just have to prepare better, and equip our children with more common sense at a younger age ( though this by no means is ideal in my book - and should not be the case - just the world we live in now).

 

Sarah xox

[Egluntyne]

the £100 weekly fine has also been bandied about.

 

I would imagine that this would be unenforceable.

[Jules.]

Thanks for all your comments. I did write an email to school early yesterday, but sent it to my friend instead for advice (she's much older & wiser than me!).

She asked me if I wanted to send the email to school to feel better emotionally or to have some action re the security of school (it wa quite an emotional email if these things can be put across that way). I decided I wanted to send it for the emotional release it would give me, but then it would create all sorts of awkward things for the future- I would never fell comfortable approaching school in the future for example, & I did write that down in the email. She said if I wanted action then just send a short email asking that would the air con be put into the hall, & perhaps trying a bit of humour 'cause that sometimes works! In the end I have not emailled school at all & feel glad about that. I had not conidered the DH's point of view- maybe she had had a bad morning that day etc, we are all human at the end of the day.

I agree with all your points about the risk of any attack being tiny in the scheme of things. I origininally went to tell school about the door being open because very recently the gates at the main entrance have been wide open when I have been to collect Ethan & when I went into school to tell them they had no idea that they were open & I was thanked on that occasion for telling them.... !

I am sure that if the air con is being installed in the hall over the summer when we come back from the holidays we will have a newsletter telling us all about it.

 

Re the £100 fine I don't know how that would be enforced, either, but that's another thread.

[starboyhull]

I think thats probably a good idea it wasnt sent, as you say it would have made you feel awkward...... Im guessing that just writing it all down was as good a release as any......

 

Im glad you feel better about the situation and if the air con is being installed over the summer then this isnt something thats going to be happeneing all the time.....

[Jules.]

Yep, writing things down has always been a release for me... I could not sleep after giving birth to Alexander (even though he was an easy birth) until I had written it all down- I still have that & I keep it with his birth cards!

[Dippy Egg]

Jules, you remind me of me!

 

You have behaved completely as a mother should, worrying about her child`s safety. It is very difficult to completely hand responsibility for your child`s safety over to another person/persons. Speaking as an ex-teacher I expect the school was fully aware of all potential dangers but no one cares for a child in the same way as a parent.

 

When your children start Secondary School it will be even harder, communication between school/child/parent decreases & you just have to accept it.

 

Enjoy your Summer Hols!

[Cate in NZ]

 

When your children start Secondary School it will be even harder, communication between school/child/parent decreases & you just have to accept it.

 

Enjoy your Summer Hols!

 

I really agree with statement Dippy, and I have to admit that initially I found that very hard, there's a real leap in communication, or rather lack of it between primary and secondary schools, I think that the children are expected to inform us much more of what's going on, but teenagers aren't always the most communicative creatures

[Jules.]

I think our local high school sends home letters by royal mail!

[Dippy Egg]

Enough said! Our village post lady is lovely but Royal Mail seems to be Snail Mail these days!