Lesley Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 I agree Bron - most, if not all, of us on here agree with you Poet. Poor Martin has been given the task of presenting both sides of the issue and I should imagine he was having difficulty thinking of any reasons to put for the other side - especially as he is heavily involved in BHWT rescues and has rescue hens himself. By asking on here, he has at least been given information he can use - and may even make a few more converts I think all this information has been good for the rest of us as well - it can be helpful to take a good look at why we do what we are doing and reaffirms what we feel is right. Healthy debate is good for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Yes...if you read Martin's original post, you can see how the thread has evolved. 2 converts Martin. Well done. So much better to achieve them by gentle persuasion than by hectoring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superjules Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 What are these people on about: this system is actually designed for the welfare of the birds.................HOW STUPID ARE THESE PEOPLE No, they're not stupid. but they must think we are if they expect us to believe that. They should be estate agents! "And here we have compact and bijou chicken living quarters, decorated in the latest minimalist style!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 So much better to achieve them by gentle persuasion than by hectoring. The gentle way always ends up with them thinking it was their idea Well done Martin - I expect that you've learned something too, by taking the opposing side for a change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popcorn Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 oh, yes, I think we're all on the same page here by not supporting the battery farm method, it easy to get caught up in heartache of it when you read some of the reasons why Farmers still keep hens this way. Glad all is going well for you Martin. Best of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 I think one of the main benefits of caged birds as opposed to free-ranging is down to the fox. A farmer can have his flock decimated and all his profits gone so easily if his birds are foxed. Locked in cages, this cannot happen. I have spoken to a farmer (well the farmer's brother!) who can't see any sense in providing easy food for foxes. He says that is not the reason he keeps hens. then go for the barn option then, there's no excuse to stuff intelligent, sentient, feeling, sweet creatures into tiny cages! Free range farmers make a profit or they wouldn't do it so the fox issue can't be that major. I'll try and find out what they do to protect their flocks... they protect them with high electric fencing, I'd rather pay a bit more for my eggs to cover the cost of this than know my eggs had come from a hen suffering in a cramped cage- even barn eggs are a Better option as at least the birds have room to move around, dust bathe, perch etc even if they don't actually get to go outside. THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR CAGED/BATTERY FARMING EXCEPT PROFIT! I dont think any of us disagree with you. Its just a thread trying to help Martin with his school work I'm answering the comments made by that farmer. If his excuse for battery farming is to keep the hens away from predators then he could at least convert to the barn system. I know you all know but HE obviously doesn't or probably more likely, doesn't give a damn. I didn't say any of you disagreed with me, I was countering the points HE raised, that's what a debate is isn't it!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 I doubt the farmer is a member of the forum though..... So you are still preaching to the converted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 I doubt the farmer is a member of the forum though..... So you are still preaching to the converted. ginette said she'd actually spoken to the farmer, in my naiveity i assumed she'd pass the comments back and maybe even find out out what his objections to the barn system are. If I'm preaching and/or hectoring, I'll back off it's just a subject that upsets me so much. I assumed when Martin presents the so called 'good points' that he needs bad points to back them up too otherwise his speech might have the opposite effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 Let's not let this descend into an argument please! I didn't for a moment think that anyone would consider that I agreed with the farmer. I hope no-one did. Hearing the farmer's views however, did make me understand where he was coming from. He is running a business - selling eggs. If a fox kills his hens, he has no business. I think that was how he looked at it and quite possibly he didn't care too much about his hens, I don't know. He just saw a straightforward equation: No hens = no income. I didn't go further with the discussion because I chose to 'walk away' from it. I was talking to the farmer's brother and the opinion he was passing on was very strongly held. I am not timid but it wasn't appropriate at that time to enter into a full discussion. I too believe we all hold the same views and support the abolition of Battery Farms wholeheartedly. p.s. Harvester Restaurants use caged eggs and couldn't tell me exactly where their chickens come from because they use a lot of suppliers. Their website has some terrible grammatical errors too, so I'm not impressed although I love the salad bar! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 I didn't think for a moment that you were agreeing with that particular point of view Ginette. While ever there is a market for cheap eggs, the farmers will continue to produce them. And we do have to remember that they are not monsters, but working folk trying to earn a reasonable wage and provide for their families etc. However, we all hope for the best for all hens. Educating the consumer is the way forward I reckon. Martin's presentation at school will go a long way to do precisely that, with the consumer of the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules. Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Martin- how about contacting Jamie Oliver about your homework... now if you could get him to go into school with you (along with a couple of ex batts as has been mentioned befroe) then that would be *Julia now comes down from the moon to reality* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin B Posted November 10, 2007 Author Share Posted November 10, 2007 I think it is too late now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocchick Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Have you done the talk yet? If not I'd add that the birds are hybrids bred for optimum production and friendliness to avoid bullying, also won't lose eggs through broodiness. As the chickens are retired after about a year the farmer will get efficient egg production and a more standardised product. There won't be inperfections on the eggs as the chickens get older, a drop in production or losses due to moulting or cold weather. If they are not freeranging they will get all the nutrients from the food i.e. eating greens/other food can cause a drop in production. I'm sure you'll do a great talk, and you're a great ambassador for the BHWT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 i like the way you say "retired" after a year i need to stop reading this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirl Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 Well the ones rescued by the BHWT are retired it's just the others don't have nearly so happy an ending. I assume they end up in pet food and similar. Is that right? Someone educate me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenzin Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 I really can't believe there is an argument for and against IT'S WRONG " SIMPLE AS THAT Just have a look on Youtube at the videos ..... I wish people wouldn't buy anything other than free range eggs from supermarkets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 We all know that Tenzin.... Poor Martin has been asked to make a presentation at school, to demonstrate both sides of the argument. I'm sure he will win over a few more consumers of the future when he let's rip at school. I dare say that if he is allowed to link up to the Youtube clips he will persuade even more. Good luck Martin. I think that we have all demonstrated that we feel the same way, but have just worded it differently. I can't remember the last time I bought an egg....and thanks to Buffie's excellent work I now am able to avoid products such as Hellman's etc and I'm sure I'm not alone in this. Small steps....but all in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 i like the way you say "retired" after a year A polite way of saying slaughtered. I think we all know what happens to the ones that aren't rescued by the BHWT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ain't Nobody Here Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 ...and thanks to Buffie's excellent work I now am able to avoid products such as Hellman's etc and I'm sure I'm not alone in this. Is there a post somewhere where I can catch up on "Buffie's excellent work"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 ...and thanks to Buffie's excellent work I now am able to avoid products such as Hellman's etc and I'm sure I'm not alone in this. Is there a post somewhere where I can catch up on "Buffie's excellent work"? I don't think there is...just little bits gleaned along the way. What a fantastic idea, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 (edited) i like the way you say "retired" after a year A polite way of saying slaughtered. I think we all know what happens to the ones that aren't rescued by the BHWT. I know we all know that Christian but the people hearing the talk possibly won't. 'Retired' conjures up such nice images of hens living out the rest of their days in comfort. Choice of wording is important. It's like in that link that was posted where they described the hens accommodation as "comfortable". It might actually be useful for Martin to use those positive phrases, get his audience thinking "ahhhh, battery farming is all so fluffy and nice" and then when he gives his opposing POV, he can tear those positive phrases to pieces with the TRUTH. Might have more impact on his audience. Edited November 11, 2007 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 Well the ones rescued by the BHWT are retired it's just the others don't have nearly so happy an ending. I assume they end up in pet food and similar. Is that right? Someone educate me! correct, I have even read that they're sold to the local takeaway or end up in cheap tins of food and pies etc! or left to die in a pile in a corner of the shed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 Back to improving conditions..... Look...HERE.... If the BHWT are encouraged, then so am I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chocchick Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 Egluntine said it all above, it is help for the school talk on the "for" argument. By retired I meant the farmer only uses the chickens for a year then gets new ones. How did you end up on the "for" side Martin.... Maybe you could help the people on the "against" side so well to support the cause? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin B Posted November 11, 2007 Author Share Posted November 11, 2007 Well tomorrow is the day. I have a powerpoint presentation with all my own photos that I have taken at various rescues, including a picture of Emma from behind! (Martin 4 - 0 Emma) I am not on the for side but my whole group is stuck for ideas which could be 4, but thankfully I have this thread to help now. We are meant to present a debate, but I'm going to chage this a bit and do a presentation on BHWT then do the debate! I'll let you know how I go! Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
