Lavenders_Blue Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Sorry for the long post, but I'm after some ideas for helping Tango with her dislike of strangers. This is not a new problem, but unfortunately a small incident happened this morning which means I really need to knock this problem on the head. Tango seems to be afraid of strangers, which results in barking and trying to jump up at the person - what I call the 'rabid dog impression'. Up to now I've been trying to manage the problem by keeping her close to my side when we are near strangers and walking her past them with a treat in my hand to get her to focus on me. This works to a certain extent, but there are two problems. One is that it's entirely unpredictable who she is going to take a dislike to. It's never anyone with a dog, but could be a man or a woman, with or without all the usual 'odd things' dogs don't like - hats, beards (not the women), umbrellas etc. I've really tried to work out what it is that upsets her, but it does seem to be something known only to Tango. The other problem is that if she really takes a dislike to someone, no amount of treats/distraction works and all I can do is keep her really close to my side and get past quickly. The reason this came to a head this morning is that she jumped up at my neighbour across the road this morning and injured him It was just one of those things that happened - I had my back turned picking up poo, he came round the corner, she did the rabid dog and jumped up (she was on a lead) and broke the skin on his hand. Thankfully he was very good about it - and I did check that it wasn't a bite (he said not) so I think she just scratched him really hard when she jumped up - but I am of course concerned that if it happens again the next person might be less than sympathetic. Plus of course I don't want her to be doing it anyway! So - all suggestions welcomed please! Is there anything I could use (thinking along the lines of Scullcap and Valerian) to take the edge off her anxiety while I work on this? I will make the effort to take her to some public places more often - walk her through town a couple of times a week etc. We do see people out on our walks in the village, but it does tend to be mostly the same people and other dog walkers in the main, so I don't think she gets enough stranger exposure. Do you think this might work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superkitty Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 When I was in pets at home recently I saw they had started stocking pressure vests for anxious dogs. Might be worth a look? I have to qualify this by saying I have never owned a dog! But they have been using pressure vests to improve focus and reduce anxiety for a while for autistic children - I have a family member whose autistic child wears them and she swears it has made a massive difference. Maybe it works the same for dogs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chucky Mama Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 When I was in pets at home recently I saw they had started stocking pressure vests for anxious dogs. They are called Thundershirts - I am not convinced about them myself, they are quite an expensive thing to 'try' unfortunately . I think that you should enlist the help of a behaviouralist as she will need some careful training to sort this out. You could use either an Adaptil Collar or some Adaptil Spray on a cloth bandana which will take the edge off her in the meantime. You could also use Zylkene capsules or Skullcap and Valerian. Personally I think the Adaptil is the best thing to use on walks, it is easier than trying to remember to dose her with tablets. The new guidelines regarding 'Dangerous Dogs' covers much more that previously and had the chap that she jumped up at had a mind to things could have got sticky for you. I know she is not a dangerous dog but there are a lot of anti dog people out there. If she is insured, you could ask your vet to refer you and you will then be able to claim for the behaviouralist depending on your insurer. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheekymonkey68 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Hiya, I recently adopted Toby a Patterdale, he's nearly 8 and he has issues which we've been working on..... he bit my neighbour very similar situation to yourself and then he bit one of my staff and that was the last straw.He is also not good at meeting other dogs, scared of the hoover or anything mechanical and is obsessed by footballs. We took him for three weeks behavioural modfication at a dog training/ kennel. At the end of three weeks we went for training. They had said that he wasnt aggressive and that they couldnt make him bite anyone in the same scenario, whilst he was with them. We were to use a slip collar attached to his lead. At home, he's not allowed on any of the furniture unless we ask him up but it should be as a treat rather than a normal thing. No touch no talk no eye contact being the most important for ourselves and our visitors entering the house as his energy levels get too high for him to handle otherwise. Our secret weapon is a plastic drink bottle with pea gravel in the bottom. If we ask him to do something and his energy levels are too high and he ignores us he gets a shake of the bottle, which brings him back to earth very rapidly. We use this out on walks if necessary, when meeting and sitting with other dogs, also if he gets obsessed with anything. All in all his training has paid off, he is a lot calmer than he was, he has now been able to meet several dogs out on walks , with no issues at all, the hoover gets a couple of cursory barks on start up rather than being attacked and best of all no issues with strange men approaching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavenders_Blue Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 I think that you should enlist the help of a behaviouralist as she will need some careful training to sort this out. Agreed - just spoken to hubby about this and he said the same thing. The chap we used for dog training classes is also an APBC behaviourist, so I will contact him tonight and ask for his help with this. The new guidelines regarding 'Dangerous Dogs' covers much more that previously and had the chap that she jumped up at had a mind to things could have got sticky for you. I know she is not a dangerous dog but there are a lot of anti dog people out there. He did (very nicely!) point this out to me, and he - and you - are right. Hence why this needs to be sorted out as next time it may not work out so well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chucky Mama Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Great to hear that you have decided on professional help Keep us posted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasperaliceuk Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 My dog Milo has exactly the same issue. He is territorial in the house and garden, barks like mad at the front door and has barked and lunged at strangers but he has never bitten. The times it has happened he has been surprised by people. Yet he is a very friendly dog and forms big attachments to people he has got to know. It is quite a long time since he has done the barking and lunging bit though as I have worked hard on his stranger issues using targeting and 'go say hi'. There are several other strategies too and you absolutely right at getting a behaviourist in to help who can help you along the way. I do implore you however to not go the aversive route - that can seriously backfire and particularly so with a nervous and fearful dog. Rattle cans come under aversives. No behaviourist these days should be advising that, despite them being used on Dog Borstal! This is the exercise which has been invaluable in getting him used to strangers. It puts the choice with him whether or not to approach and because he gets a reward it is invariably 'yes please!' http://www.cyberagility.com/SayHiTargeting.pdf Until you get to see your behaviourist you could start practising at home amongst family and people he is comfortable with. It won't conflict with behavioural advice as it is something all dogs can be taught. We are now at the point where if he sees strangers (and like you he does not worry about people with dogs in tow), he will look to me, and he gets a reward for seeing the scary person. That is based on another exercise called 'Look at That' in another book called Control Unleashed. As he is a ball fiend too, he seems to have no qualms in throwing his ball at strangers for a game so that too gives him confidence. Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavenders_Blue Posted November 4, 2012 Author Share Posted November 4, 2012 jasperaliceuk, Tango sounds exactly like Milo, including being very attached to people she knows, except she is more random in who she doesn't like. Yesterday afternoon I took her out and we walked past 3 groups of people (all without dogs) - she was not in the slightest bit bothered and in fact gave them all a friendly sniff. This morning we saw the 'hated man' again - rabid dog impression She is fine 90% of the time with strangers, but of course it'sthe 10% that is the worry as it's usually difficult to predict who it might be that she barks at. The behaviourist has been contacted, so just waiting to hear back from him. He uses positive training methods and we've trained with him before so I'm not worried about what training approach he will take. I wouldn't dream of using aversive methods, I don't think scaring a nervous dog is going to be in the slightest bit helpful! In the meantime, we're tightening up on heelwork in the hope that I can at the very least get Tango to walk to heel past people. It won't solve the problem in itself, but if it stops her lungeing and jumping at people it's a good start and we can take the training from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Sorry to hear that L_B, I hope that you get it sorted. Cyrus is very nervous of certain dogs and only when he is on lead; as you know, I know very little about his previous life but his fears and scars are consistent with him having been tied up and either used as a bait dog, or attacked whilst on lead. I tried DAP (Adaptil) with him with very little effect, treat training works well at distracting him though and T Touch helps him to be less nervous. He has got a lot better over the 18 months I have had him, but it's just a case of finding what works for Tango. You might want to ask the folks on LL as some of them have behavioural experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavenders_Blue Posted November 5, 2012 Author Share Posted November 5, 2012 Thanks DM, I'll pop over to LL and ask over there. Like Cyrus, I don't know Tango's past either. She is great with other dogs (although occasionally can be a bit defensive on lead) but I get the impression she's just not had the experiences that 'normal' well socialised pups get. I'm pretty sure she's not been badly treated. She can freak out at the weirdest things - I went for a walk with a friend and her new baby a couple of weeks ago and it soon became obvious she had never seen a pram before as she was very wary of it. I think she probably just needs lots of careful socialisation with different people, but obviously I need to go about it the right way so as not to make her more nervous. Interestingly, she is brilliant with children. I don't know if she's been used to being around kids or if she just realises they are not a threat, but I would never worry about her being around children. Don't you just wish they could tell us about their pasts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 If you look on YouTube there's a good Turid Rugaas video on there about socialising scared dogs. I'd rope in some folks she hasn't met yet, perhaps friends of friends, give them some very yummy treats and get them to approach her carefully, at a distance and not making eye contact with her. If you treat and praise her as they approach, and then get them to crouch down at a comfortable (for her) distance with a treat in their hand but not looking directly at her. That might work. LBB would be a good person to ask for help with this as she 'speaks dog', and I'm happy to help too. Ruby tends to get waaay too excited when she meets new people, nowadays she mostly now greets them appropriately but the ex and also a neighbour both ignore my requests to ignore her and will insist on getting on the floor to fuss her and get her excited Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 From what I have read, jumping up at strangers is a way of dominating them. Trying to get 'higher', which Milo did at first, but has stopped now. He will occasionally try it, but gets a firm 'no' when he does. I rarely say no to him, but do make noises when i'm not happy with his behaviour, I save the 'NO' for when he is naughty - like stepping off the kerb etc. I called a dog trainer in after 8 weeks when he was trying to/and biting people coming in the front door. She worked wonders, and now he is fine - if the visitors ignore him completely for the first few minutes. I have found him much better off the lead as then he can run away if he gets too scared of a situation. Fight or flight springs to mind - something a dog can't do if they are on the lead. Therefore, they can appear aggressive. Milo is not that found of my next door neighbour who wears a hearing aid - I do think it is the noise. However, in the past few weeks I stand and chat to him more and Milo actually went over for a tummy rub this week That's the trouble with rescue dogs, you just don't know what happened before. However, onwards and upwards and I am so chuffed with the sweet dog that Milo has turned into. I hope Tango soon settles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavenders_Blue Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 You're right about on/off lead Christian, Tango can behave differently off lead to onlead - she can be a bit narky with other dogs for example on lead but 100% fine off lead. I have also wondered about fight/flight and taking away flight option. Not sure about trying to dominate other people, it's not a theory I subscribe to, but I do think she takes the view that she'll try to warn somone off to keep them away from her - getting her shout in first if you like. I just wish she could tell me what is was she is scared of - it would makes things so much easier! We've had some good success in the past few days with heelwork and 'watch me' work. Two days ago she had a mad bark at someone so I took her right away from the person, put her in a sit and asked her to 'watch me' (which she already knows how to do). She was quite happy to do that and focus on me. I carefully took a couple of steps towards the person and she was still happy to focus on me, although she did have a look at the person. By the time we had done this, he had moved on. A small success I think but it's going to be baby steps. Unfortunately the behaviourist we worked with before seems not to have his business any more - not sure if he's just moved out of the area or what. So it's back to the drawing board with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 We've had some good success in the past few days with heelwork and 'watch me' work. Two days ago she had a mad bark at someone so I took her right away from the person, put her in a sit and asked her to 'watch me' (which she already knows how to do). She was quite happy to do that and focus on me. I carefully took a couple of steps towards the person and she was still happy to focus on me, although she did have a look at the person. By the time we had done this, he had moved on. A small success I think but it's going to be baby steps. That's very similar to T Touch groundwork, try getting in touch with Toni Shelbourne who helped me with Ruby. There's a lady called Julie Love who is a dog trainer out towards your way (Maidford I think) she's very reward based in her training too and I've heard good reports on her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavenders_Blue Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 Thanks C, neither of those people are that close to me but I will drop them an e-mail. I know they can't diagnose by remote control, but just some confirmation that I'm heading in the right direction would be reassuring LBB linked me to a YouTube TTouch video a couple of weeks back which I found really interesting. I'd be interested to learn more about it as I think it would be helpful for Tango. She is the kind of dog that is constantly wired and doesn't really switch off. I wonder if there are workshops/courses for the lay person to learn more about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Yes, ask Toni and she will recommend a practitioner in your area. It has really helped Ruby and would probably have even more of an effect if I did it more regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavenders_Blue Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 I just thought I'd do a little update on our situation. I have been working really hard with Tango on her barking problem. We're by no means fixed (and I don't think we ever will be) but we have taken huge steps forward. I now work on the basis when we are out walking that Tango WILL bark and lunge at anyone who doesn't have a dog with them, so if she's not already on-lead, then I recall her in plenty of time, pop her on a lead and make her walk to heel past the person. We tend to walk in areas where we have good visibility so she doesn't get 'surprised' by people appearing from no-where and startling her. I started by giving everyone a very wide berth when we walked past, crossing the road if necessary, and have gradually been able to reduce the distance so that we can pass most people fairly closely without her kicking off. I was so proud the other week when we passed a group of walkers coming towards us, they had no dogs with them so I put Tango back on lead in plenty of time. As we got close to the walkers, Tango looked up at me asking for her treat When we got past them I did a little dance of joy that she had finally decided that she wanted that treat more than she wanted to bark. Yesterday, however, my heart jumped into my mouth when she spotted a person wearing a bright yellow walking jacket (quite a way in the distance) and set off in pursuit Thankfully a quick blast on the whistle and waving my treat bag in the air like a loony brought her back. Note to self - extra caution required with people who look like they are wearing hi-viz clothing! So, we still have the odd hiccup, but I am pleased to say with hard work and careful management the situation seems to be vastly improving. Tango even jumped up at someone to say hello in the street the other day, which is unheard of! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheekymonkey68 Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Thats brilliant news and it looks like all your hard work has paid off! I cant say that Toby would ever come back if he'd set his mind on going to catch something/one no matter what treats I had in my hand. (Hence he's only ever on an extender..... ) Im truly impressed. We are having managed introductions to various postmen at the moment and anyone wearing orange high vis. But Im still considering putting a post box at the end of the drive on the outside of the gate just in case.... looks like new laws may mean we will be accountable for any injuries on our own property soon..clearly I wouldnt want anyone to be injured although I hope that doesnt appy to burglars!!! Hope things keep getting better for Tango M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavenders_Blue Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 Ah now, people entering our house - that is a different thing entirely! My parents and OHs parents are about the only people allowed in, anyone else is not welcome. This makes things quite difficult! Most of our friends are, thankfully, dog people and happy to take Tango as they find her. I ask people to ignore her unless she approaches them for a fuss, which she usually does after a while. Some people she is okay with once they have been in the house a few minutes, other people are tolerated as long they are sitting down but get barked at if they move around the house (Bit awkward when people need to use the loo) She has to be shut out of the way if workmen come into the house. I am as sure as I can be that she wouldn't injure anyone, but no-one wants to be barked at by a manic dog while they are trying to do their job, and I wouldn't take someone's say-so myself if they told me their mad, barking dog doesn't bite, so it's safer all round if she's kept out of the way. I had a chap in to fix our shower this morning and he commented on Tango barking behind the living room door. I told him I was fairly certain that she wouldn't do anything but that I preferred to keep her out of the way. He told me he was grateful that I had done that, as the last time someone told him their dog was all bark and no bite he ended up with eleven stitches in his arm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Great news that she's getting better L_B - it's hard work isn't it? She's a super little dog and I'm sure she will overcome it soon. Cyrus is getting a bit less scared of other dogs when he's on the lead and they are loose; he is fine off-lead but a real jessie when on it and will back off barking. I usually keep myself between him and other dogs if they are offlead or have hi walking alongside Ruby which gives him confidence. He is very dim and not terribly treat orientated and while I've managed to teach him a couple of commands it's still hit and miss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavenders_Blue Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 Aww bless Cyrus. He is such a lovely boy but can understand him being nervous of offlead dogs when he's on lead. I think dogs can often feel trapped when they are on lead and they don't know how another dog is going to react. He just needs to realise his mum will look after him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chucky Mama Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Good to hear you are making progress. Have you tried using adaptil (used to be DAP).You may find a bottle of pray useful for when you have visitors. When you know you have someone coming you could spray the threshold and also put some on a bandana or a cloth hanky wrapped around her collar.It may well help reduce her anxiety. It mimics the calming pheromones that hitches give of to their puppies when they are nursing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavenders_Blue Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 CM, I hadn't thought of using DAP for when visitors come. When you say spray the threshold, do you mean where visitors come it, ie by the front door? I have a nice big hankie that I think would fit well as a bandana (I can try it on her for size!) so that could be worth a go. Is DAP available off prescription? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 It is L_B, I have a spray if you want to borrow it to try, I can post it over. It doesn't make a lot of difference to Ruby TBH. Pet Remedy diffusers do help her a bit, but they tend to give off a fine condensate which collects on surfaces Skullcap and Valerian (Dorwest Herbs) helps a bit but not much touches her firework anxiety; I am going to try Zylkene when I can afford to order some, it's not cheap but has good reports. It's hard work having highly strung dogs, isn't it? On another note, Cyrus was pretty brave on the walk this afternoon, we saw a few dogs, some horses and some loose foxhounds and while he grumbled a bit he wasn't too scared. Mind you he had his big buddy Dylan to look out for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavenders_Blue Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Would you mind DM? I will PM you. It would be helpful to have a go with the DAP spray to see if it works before buying some. I don't mind buying a diffuser, but as we don't have visitors that often I don't think it would be very cost effective so the spray might be more helpful. I also wondered about Scullcap and Valerian, but for the same reason didn't think it would be that useful, as it would probably need to be taken a few days in advance to get into her system. I suppose they might help with her outside stranger-danger too though, which might be good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
