Chicken bald back

[Ain't Nobody Here]

What happens if you have a legal bill you can't afford to pay?

 

My mum has an outstanding bill for £2,500 for drawing up a Will which I have queried as I don't think they should have undertaken the work. I hadn't heard anything since June when I wrote to them but today I found a letter dated 23 August in mum's house (her dementia means she doesn't remember seeing it and hasn't a clue what it means).

 

They seem to think I'm querying the cost of the work undertaken - I'm not, I'm querying why they undertook the work in the first place. They suggest sending the file to the Auditor of Court to consider if the fee is fair. It could go either way and mum would have to pay if it turns out to be more.

 

She hasn't enough money to pay this bill (some of you will know this is because my brother took all her savings). What can I do? I am her Power of Attorney so hopefully can deal with this without causing her more distress but I'm worried sick.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Guest

[Egluntyne]

That seems awfully steep, unless the will was very complex. I would query the amount. Did they draw up the Power of Attorney? If not, did the will predate you being given the POA?

[sadietoo]

in England and Wales to take instructions for a will from a person with dementia any self respecting solicitor would first get a doctor's certificate to confirm that she had the capacity to give the instructions. I cant believe its that much different in Scotland and would start there first. If she wasn't capable of giving instructions the Will is worthless and I don't see how she could be capable of entering into a contract with them for their services. Also two and a half thousand pounds for a Will For someone with no money is outrageous. Don't be too impressed by the fact it is a legal bill it's a bill for services like Any other and open to challenge.

[chickencam]

If the bill is just for a will then even a complex one shouldn't be more than a few hundred pounds, basic single will would be £150+

 

The POA can be expensive but again not more than £700.

 

I would ask again why they felt the need to do the new will, ask for a written explanation and a printout of the time entries which should have a narrative explaining them.

 

If it looks like you will pay most solicitors will accept installments.

[superkitty]

That's an outrageous amount, I'd ask for itemisation of how they reached that bill. My will cost about £250 and that included some very complicated stuff regarding my business as well as just personal assets etc. so sorry you're having to deal with this.

[Ain't Nobody Here]

Basically, what happened is this:

 

Mum made a Will last Nov with this firm with my support. Normal sized bill (I've never seen it but lawyer said it was a 'couple of hundred'). Letter of capacity from GP was asked for and given. No PoA involved.

 

My brother found out and took her, without my knowledge, back to the same firm and another Will was made. They got a letter of capacity from a psychiatrist (but he was unaware of the very complicated background to all of this) and say that there was a huge amount of work done - I've queried this but got no actual breakdown just confirmation that the bill is a fair amount for the work done.

 

Two weeks later my brother took her to a different legal firm and another Will (the same as the other one, presumably) plus PoA application was made. They didn't know about the other Wills.

 

When I found out about these 2 Wills and the PoA, I alerted the firm and they agreed that my brother hadn't been acting in Mum's best interests, revoked the PoA and helped her make a new Will (which was the same as the first one made in Nov). The bill for this was about £700 and has been paid.

 

There has been a long Social Work investigation because of all this. I am now PoA along with the lawyer who made the final Will.

 

I think my brother should be made to pay it as he caused these bills to be run up and took all her savings but I can't see that happening. We are basically estranged now as he refuses to communicate with me. SW acknowledge that he has behaved badly but as no crime has been committed nothing can be done.

[Charlottechicken]

SW acknowledge that he has behaved badly but as no crime has been committed nothing can be done.

 

He swindled money out of a relative who was in no fit state to stop him, and no crime has been committed???

[Louise]

My mum had a stroke 6 years ago and recently when my dads terminal cancer became imminent (he died 4 weeks ago) he arranged new wills for himself and my mum. They had to have a legal letter from her GP to state she was aware of what was going on and an independent legal person present who was solely there to ensure my mum both understood the process and was happy with what was written into her will. That person then had to sign it NOT my mum or POA who at the time was my dad and is now me. We are in Scotland, I have no idea what the process should be but the solicitor was keen to make sure whatever is my mums will is watertight.

 

Hope this helps ANH

[Geoid]

but as no crime has been committed nothing can be done.

 

Section 6 of the Fraud Act 2006:

 

Fraud by abuse of position

 

(1)A person is in breach of this section if he—

(a)occupies a position in which he is expected to safeguard, or not to act against, the financial interests of another person,

(b)dishonestly abuses that position, and

©intends, by means of the abuse of that position—

(i)to make a gain for himself or another, or

(ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

[Ain't Nobody Here]

I'm so sorry to hear about your dad, Louise .

 

Mum did have letters of capacity from a doctor/psychiatrist and the lawyers thought she knew what was going on but sadly, she didn't really. She could be quite convincing whilst talking complete rubbish. The lawyer who did the final Will was careful to make it watertight so that shouldn't be a problem. It's also on file that mum wants that Will.

 

Fred, he was only PoA for a few weeks so the bulk of the money was taken before that. So, unfair as it seems, there's nothing I can do. He lied to mum and manipulated her into thinking she should give him the money (although I'm not sure she was aware quite how much he was taking and she certainly had no idea that she had none left until her carer alerted me). He told her it was to avoid inheritance tax. The police have been involved but as mum says she gave him the money willingly no crime has been committed.

 

I've just had a text from her carer saying mum has cancelled her for tomorrow saying she can't afford it. She's constantly worrying about money even though I keep trying to reassure her that her pension is enough for her current needs.

[Louise]

How old is your mum

 

If she is over 65 she should be entitled to free carers for most stuff my mum has people 3 times a day at the moment to make sure she is dressed and has a meal at lunchtime and dinner. They can only heat up food not cook but I make sure the freezer is full of home cooked food that can just be heated up. It means a marathon cooking event once a fortnight but I don't need to worry she is eating okay

[Olly]

I am not clear how long elapsed between you taking your mum to this firm to make a will, and your brother taking her back to the same firm. However, from what you say, she could be convincing and they did in fact get a letter from a psychiatrist. On that basis, it's going to be hard to challenge their decision that she was fit to give instructions, isn't it?

 

The amount of the bill is a separate matter, but there should be a process for challenging this which they've already mentioned. I would put your complaint very clearly in writing to the firm (you may already have done this) and be careful to distinguish the two grounds of complaint. If you can't get any satisfaction through the firm, then you can contact the Scottish Legal Complaints Commission about the 'service' aspect of the complaint, but the costs will probably have to be dealt with through the method they've outlined.

[Ain't Nobody Here]

Louise, she's 87. She does get money for the agency carers but she also has a private carer she pays herself plus a woman who comes twice a week and takes her shopping. She is lucky that she has a good widow's pension and her state pension on top means she has a good income but she has no savings to cover emergencies or bills like this.

 

Olly, it was a matter of weeks - the 3 wills were made between November and December. You're dead right, because this psychiatrist deemed her fit I can't really challenge it. Sadly, "Ooops, word censored!"ody thought to talk to me. I could have discredited my brother if they had bothered - which I have since done after the psychiatrist & SW got their knickers in a twist about all the different wills. If they done so at that stage she wouldn't have this bill and the original will would have been fine.

 

My issue with the lawyers is why one will was simple and cheap and the next, which again was simple (ie my brother got everything) took so much work and cost £2,500. I want proof of this work - where is the evidence of all the letters and phonecalls and redrafts they say were necessary?

 

I know she'll have to pay up eventually but I'm just so angry that my brother has caused all this and is swanning around with no consequences and hardly anybody even knows or believes what he's done.

[chickencam]

They should be able to provide you with a record of all the time entries for the matter.

[Ain't Nobody Here]

It's taken 5 months but I've had a response from The Scottish Legal Complaints Commission.

 

Unfortunately, they deem the 3 issues I have made a complaint about to be "totally without merit" .

 

Sadly, as I was up against someone who was prepared to lie, cheat and manipulate, there's no way it can be proved that I'm the one who was actually acting in mum's best interests.

 

As my brother has still not made any contact with me, he'll not be paying the bill so all I can do is try to get the repayments as low and spread out as possible so mum still has some savings left.

[WitchHazel]

This is awful Vicky, I am so sorry.

 

Is it worth contacting Citizen's Advice? Or BBC Radio 4's Money Box? Or one of the "Questions of Cash" type columns in the Sunday papers?

 

I'm just wondering if the legal bill is for more than a Wil/POA? Maybe he's got her to sign the house over to him or something?

[Bramble]

Sorry to hear you are still having problems

 

I don't think any of us is able to comment on the level of fees charged here, we don't know what the Solicitors did and didn't do, whether the fee for the psych report was included in their costs etc etc etc.

 

However, to me, the costs isn't really the concern (I'm sorry, that sounds very cavalier, but hopefully what follows will clarify it a bit). I'm not sure who has raised the bill for £2,500 - the solicitors who made the second will or the ones who made the third will? I'm concerned to read your comment that the first will was made by the same firm who made the second will ... their "systems" should have picked up the fact that the same lady was making a VERY different will a matter of weeks after the first one ... all solicitors have to ask for proof of ID for every client (anti money laundering purposes) so the solicitor could/should have picked up that this had all been done for your mum first time around. YOur mother would also probably have a client number or similar with that firm so there would be no way that the solicitor who did the second will wouldn't have known that she had recently made a Will with the same firm.

 

If I were you, I would get your mum to write to the firm who made the second will and ask for her file ... it SHOULD contain a fairly comprehensive note of any meetings that took place, confirm whether or not your brother was present and should also contain a letter of instruction to the Dr/Psych who did the report. The downside of this is, if it is the bill for the second will which is being queried - the solicitors probably won't release the file unless they are paid.

 

I would also seek a copy of the costs information your mother was given before she instructed the solicitors to proceed - that should have contained an estimate.

 

Failing all else, I would seek a meeting with the senior partner of the firm concerned to address your concerns. At the very least, they should be prepared to accept payment by hopefully very small instalments, given your mother's circumstances.

 

Fingers crossed.

[Ain't Nobody Here]

I have a 6 page document setting out the SLCC's findings. I accept that they made decisions based on the information the solicitors gave them but I'm the only one who knows the whole story (and has told the truth throughout) but haven't been given the opportunity to prove that. They say, amongst other things, it's not impossible that I coerced my mother and it wasn't the solicitor's job to work out who was telling the truth, my mum was her client and she took her at her word. I get that, but it's still so unfair .

 

I'm just wondering if the legal bill is for more than a Will/POA? Maybe he's got her to sign the house over to him or something?

Just Will 2 but they say the circumstances required a lot of extra work (which they have itemised). The PoA was charged by the other solicitors with Will 3. That was about £700 (a reasonable bill).

 

I did get the final solicitor to check the house, it is all in order - half in her name and half held for my dad's estate till it's sold on mum's death.

[Ain't Nobody Here]

I'm not sure who has raised the bill for £2,500 - the solicitors who made the second will or the ones who made the third will?

It is very confusing!

There was a Will made 2010 (not involved in these costs). Mum not happy with it so in 2012 :

Will 1 was made with Co. A - me & mum. Couple of hundred £, bill paid.

Will 2 was made with Co. A - brother & mum. This is the £2,500 fee.

Will 3 was made with Co. B - brother & mum. Inc PoA, c£700, bill paid. (This was 2 weeks after Will 2.)

Will 4 was made with Co. B - me and mum. Inc revoking PoA & new PoA. c £700, bill paid.

 

I'm concerned to read your comment that the first will was made by the same firm who made the second will

Not just same firm, same solicitor. It was a very small branch of a large firm.

 

If I were you, I would get your mum to write to the firm ...

The report itemises all the meetings/telephone attendances/who was present & includes phone attendance with the psychiatrist.

 

I would also seek a copy of the costs information your mother was given before she instructed the solicitors to proceed - that should have contained an estimate.

There was no estimate, just their fees.

 

Failing all else, I would seek a meeting with the senior partner of the firm …

To be honest, I can't face any more confrontation and mum is oblivious to the whole thing. I think we'll just have to let it go.

This has cost my poor mum so much money (which I feel really guilty about) and has been so stressful that I will never forgive my brother, quite apart from his financial abuse and lies.

 

I'm sorry for droning on, it must be so boring for you to read but I appreciate being able to offload.

[Egluntyne]

The cost of will 2 looks a bit steep. I would definitely ask for a breakdown of this item.

[Ain't Nobody Here]

Have done so but it was pretty pathetic. The SLCC findings give me more info, tbh but still hard to believe that a few meetings/phone calls/emails can cost that much .

[WitchHazel]

I can't imagne how you are feeling Vicky.

 

*My* blood started to boil again thinking about how your brother could clean your mum out like this. I don't even know you or your mum, and I can feel anger welling up inside me. Goodness knows how you are coping.

[Purplemaniacs]

I'm so sorry the result was not more positive.

 

I really feel for you, I am afraid I don't have any advise but we are here for you when you need to offload.

 

Chrissie

[Bramble]

You're not droning at all!!!

 

You say they didn't give an estimate - that's a worry in itself ... I know you are in Scotland and things might well be different there, but here, if Solicitors don't give an estimate they are on a very sticky wicket if a client subsequently queries a bill - the solicitors' governing body down here would be very likely to order that the client needn't pay anything at all if they weren't given an estimate.

 

Assuming you are not going to fight on any further (and I don't blame you at all for that) - I'd write to the senior partner and offer to settle at say £5 per month (or less if that's better for mum), point out they gave mum no indication at all as to what the cost would be and how could they know she could afford it?

[Ain't Nobody Here]

You say they didn't give an estimate -

Their Terms state "any estimate will be for a probable fee. Where we have not quoted a fixed fee we charge on a time and line basis". The estimate for Will 1 was £195 + VAT and was fairly accurate but annoyingly, the Terms mum signed covered any work carried out over the next 6 months.

 

However, their Terms also state "We would not expect that the figures will vary from those quoted unless we encounter unanticipated complications ... and in which case we will endeavour to forewarn of an increase in the fee to cover the additional work or time spent."

 

One of my complaints was that mum wasn't alerted to the rising costs, despite them having been warned she had very little money. They say they weren't provided with "a full account of the client's financial position". They never asked for one .

 

They say mum was "alerted to the fact that the costs were rising" (an 88 year old woman with dementia ).

I'm going to ask for proof that they did this.

 

What makes me so angry is that there are things that are blatantly untrue in their findings. Mum said I didn't tell her I'd collected her Will. Of course I did and left it with her but she'd forgotten. They talk about "historic family feuding". That is absolute rubbish - I was under the impression I had a perfectly normal, if distant, relationship with my brother till this all came out. Mum somehow thought that though, probably because he had been lying to her about me for years. Apparently, mum also made allegations about my "past behaviour which had upset her". This was all down to my brother's manipulation .

 

No mention is made of my brother's revoked PoA or the two Wills he forced mum to make within a 2 week period. The final solicitor and the social worker know I'm blameless but that seems to count for nothing.

 

I will wait until they demand payment from Mum, which won't be far off I suspect and although I won't be contesting the SLCC findings as such, I will be putting all these points down in a letter.