Poorly chicken

[chickenlegs]

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16061108

 

Just watched this article and wondered how I truly feel about it, mass production of food for an ever growing population is necessary but would I be happy with my chickens living like this?

[Chortle Chook]

I think we need to get away from the idea that food involving animals should be cheap. I'm not a veggie but I think we all need to eat a lot less meat, dairy products and, yes, probably eggs too.

Also (and I know this is not a very popular thing to say) I think we need to do something to stop the 'ever growing population'

[fluffy chick]

 

Also (and I know this is not a very popular thing to say) I think we need to do something to stop the 'ever growing population'

I agree actually. Not paying child benefit would help. Making sure people have children for the right reasons, and making sure they could afford them.

[Sam]

I think we have an aging population actually, the average is something like 1.6 children in England. That's why theres incentives for people to have children. Overpopulated areas have incentives not to have children.

 

Anyway, I'd much rather pay £1.50 for 6 eggs from a free range hen as apposed to 70p for caged eggs, I never knew that 50% of the egg sales are still from caged hens Thought it would be a lot less with all the media attention and the conditions of these places

[izzys-hens]

I think we have an aging population actually, the average is something like 1.6 children in England. That's why theres incentives for people to have children. Overpopulated areas have incentives not to have children.

 

Anyway, I'd much rather pay £1.50 for 6 eggs from a free range hen as apposed to 70p for caged eggs, I never knew that 50% of the egg sales are still from caged hens Thought it would be a lot less with all the media attention and the conditions of these places

 

yep we learnt all about it for geography this year at school, the uk, has an ageing population, which means there is not enough people to support the elderly ie pensions, that is why the retirment age is going up.

also if you have more children thats great for the short term, it even outs the proportions of the ages untill, those children have become old, and then you need more children etc, which causes the population to grow even more, which has loads of bad effects, eg not enough food, hence battery farmed animals.

 

The cages look better, if you watch the video, its around 2 mins, you can actually see one of the chickens move around between the other chickens, which in my opinion is much better, but still would rather see free range chickens.

[sootydog111]

last year in english we did a debate about keeping battery hens, thats what got me wanting a few bantams in the first place i dont think theres enything wrong with eating meat but i would prefer if there were no battery farms and all chickens could free range

[fluffy chick]

A lot of sales of caged eggs are from companies to go into ready meals, sweets etc. Most of us eat caged birds eggs without knowing.

[migsy]

There is absolutely no excuse for eating animals which have been farmed cruelly. If people can't afford free range then they should not eat it at all.

 

3 of my chickens came from these enriched cages and they were not in the best condition but they were quite well feathered apart from some small bald patches on their breasts. Their combs were pale and flaccid and they looked generally scrawny and bedraggled. They did not know how to scratch, dust bathe or eat corn. However, they looked a lot better than battery hens. These cages are obviously better than battery ones but they are still not good. I am proud to say, however, that my chickens are now happy as Larry in my garden and very friendly and love to eat kitchen s"Ooops, word censored!"s and treats.

[squiffs]

There is absolutely no excuse for eating animals which have been farmed cruelly. If people can't afford free range then they should not eat it at all.

 

 

I think that's a little harsh

 

If a person gets £51 a week unemployment benefit (and yes, it can be as little as £51, if they're under 25), and they need to pay bills, rent, clothe themselves etc. then everything they buy will be cheap, just because someone is poor doesn't mean they should deprive themselves of a nutritionally balanced diet. It should not be a case of 'you can only eat food that has animal welfare at its heart if you can afford it', and it is not a poor person's fault if the supermarket charges double for free range eggs. Asda has their free range eggs 2 dozen for £4 most of the year, so a mark up on free range eggs clearly doesn't need to be as high as it is. There's no logic in saying people who are less well off should eat cheap, rubbish food with no nutritional content, and burden the NHS further by becoming obese and in very ill health, costing taxpayers more money to treat them later on.

 

As others have said, even if you did buy free range eggs, there are things that one could buy that use battery eggs in them. What would make free range eggs cheaper is if the battery eggs weren't available at all, and that's not going to happen until big companies stop using them in their foods.

[counturchickens]

We're not veggie either, but since having our own hens only buy free range chicken to eat, however it is very expensive. We are fortunate that we can afford to make this choice, and appreciate not everyone can.

[migsy]

But there are alternatives. I don't eat chicken at all or any other meat for that matter and my diet is well balanced enough. I'm not suggesting poor people should starve, I'm suggesting that they eat something else instead. For example, beans and lentils are a great source of protein. Our bodies don't need nearly as much protein as most people consume. IMHO it is not necessary to be cruel to animals to have a well balanced diet.

[squiffs]

You believe your diet to be balanced and complete with the things that you eat, other people have a different opinion on what constitutes a balanced diet for different reasons. My boyfriend is vegetarian, and that's one thing we'll always disagree on, but since I don't eat meat anymore out of convenience our shopping bill has sky rocketed, luckily I can afford to sub the cheaper meat I had in my diet for fresher food, but not everyone has that luxury. I have to say I'm not surprised that you don't eat meat for you to have the opinion you do.

 

My point still stands, this isn't about whether or not people should eat meat, it's about the fact that the industry is structured in a way that makes fairly and ethically farmed animal produce nigh on untouchable for those that aren't financially as comfortable as others.

[migsy]

The main reason that I do not eat meat is because, when I stopped eating it 25 years ago, there was little free range or organic meat available. I was unable to eat meat that was farmed in a cruel way. I do not have anything against the principle of eating meat as it is clearly biologically natural. I just object to animals being treated badly.

 

I also appreciate that I will inadvertantly eat food which has come from animals that have been treated poorly, such as eating a cake with eggs in it from caged birds, but I do my best.

 

Cooking should be taught properly and widely in schools so that people know how to prepare nutritious meals on a budget.

[jackian]

I agree with squiffs , it is not always possible for people to buy free range etc., due to their finances .I don't eat meat not for any other reason that growing all my own veg and making my bread and eating the eggs from my girls I found I don't need it. I could eat it if needed.

My husband eats all meat and no veg except potatos and onions At 60+ I am in a positon to make choices.Other people are not.Years ago when I had 4 children to bring up and support I would have had to buy battery eggs through neccessity.The same reasoin why a lot of people buy "junk food" like rubbishy sausages for example..They are cheap.I blame the supermarkets.

 

P.S. 30 - 40 years ago when my children were growing up. We did not know about the terrible way chickens or other animals were treated , at least now we are aware and we are still free to make our own choices. .

[Chortle Chook]

Somehow I very much doubt that those who squeeze hens onto a space less than an A4 size of paper, or who keep their pigs inside with no room to move, or who ram their cows and sheep into two tier lorries and send them miles across the continent, are doing this for the altruistic reason that poorer people need cheaper food or that the world needs feeding. I don't really think that either they or the supermarkets or those creating fast foods for the mass market are struggling to make ends meet.

[migsy]

I'm with you on this one Cheaky Chook!

[squiffs]

No one's saying they do it for the greater good, just that those who can only afford their goods shouldn't feel alienated.

 

Migsy, I didn't mean to accuse you of being some 'vegetarian nazi' if that's how it sounded, I just meant that you naturally will have a bias towards thinking not eating meat is the right choice to make, as you do it yourself, when really the issue needs to be tackled head on so that all people can afford to buy ethically farmed animal products, rather than making the poor 'make do' or go without. It shouldn't be an 'either-or' situation. I completely agree with you that we should be taught to make healthy and practical meals cheaply, as that's what many of us have to do when we come out into the adult world. I'm sure my school meant well when they showed us how to make apple crumble, swiss roll, cheese scones and eggy bread, but they're not skills children can take out into the real world, you can't live on a diet of cakes. I'm a fan of Jamie Oliver's 'pass it on' scheme, if only more people did something like that.

 

And I'm definitely not sticking up for supermarkets and manufacturers here, they're actually the crux of the issue.

[Christian]

I only buy meat from a butchers as I know where it comes from. It is expensive, but I make it last. I think we eat far too much meat nowadays. A roast was something to look forward to on a Sunday, making the leftovers last a few days into the following week.

 

We have an obsession with eating meat with every meal and the only way the planet will survive is if we take stock at what/how we are eating and change.

 

I have just finished a book called 'The end of food' by Paul Roberts and although heaving reading at some points, does explain the reasons why we are in such a mess. China can no longer grow enough food to sustain it's own people. It now imports food. How BOGOF offers just encourage waste......the amount of food we throw away is disgusting.

 

Free range food is more expensive and i can see why. It is better quality and you get what you pay for. I think the real problem is that people simply don'y know how to cook anymore. A whole chicken is several meals....not just a roast on a Sunday and throw the carcass in the bin. BUT if you are buying 2 insipid chickens for £5, I can see why people throw it out after dinner. £8 for one chicken and you want to get everything you can out of it!

 

Food producers are listening to customers, but it is taking time. Look at Hellmans and their mayo. We all need to pay for the changes that are made, whether it is with our wallets or our health.

[chickenlegs]

Interesting reading, with many heartfelt opinions, personally I'm relieved that battery farming in this country is coming to an end, its replacement is not ideal but there is a market for mass production of food and there will never be one solution to this problem that will please everyone.

The basics taught in school cookery, such as cakes etc are there to raise an interest in the child for the subject, expecting schools to educate our children on all aspects of life is unreasonable, it should and must be down to the families, perhaps we should be educating the adults (now there's a can of worms)

[migsy]

Chickenlegs - I'm not sure what is taught in secondary schools these days but I am under the impression that cooking is not part of the National Curriculum. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. I think baking cakes, making pastry and pies, making a white sauce, cooking a fish, etc are all good culinary skills which are actually the basics of meal making. This is what I was taught in school 25 years ago. My eldest son is in Year 6 (last year of primary) and has NEVER cooked anything at school. I also know kids who learned to cook French bread pizza at high school - they might as well have learned to make cheese on toast it is such a basic level of cooking. A 5 year old could make French bread pizza.

 

When I did O-Level Home Economics we did learn about basic nutrition and how to make a balanced meal with protein, carbohydrate and the right (or wrong) types of fat. Do kids learn that these days? I don't know.

 

People are obsessed with fad diets but if they knew about basic nutrition and calories then they wouldn't bother with these fads that are only short-term fixes. It is a national outrage that kids leave school without knowing how to cook a decent meal. It is no wonder we have such an obesity problem in this country.

 

Sorry to be on my soap box - My first degree is in Home Economics so this is an issue which interests me.

 

Squiffs - No need to apologise. It would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything.

[Bramble]

Wow, what an interesting debate!

Personally, I think we need to stop supermarkets doing "BOGOF" type offers which make us all buy far more than we need (and often can use) and BAN best before dates - they cause people to throw away piles of food which is perfectly good for no reason.

I'm a veggie from choice ... I could afford to eat meat, but choose not to, but I have no problem at all with others eating meat ... I think that's a personal choice ?

[Olly]

As my friend who grew up in a much poorer country than this once commented 'food is either good or bad - what do dates have to do with it?'.

I have friends who will throw away unopened packets of food because it has passed it's sell-by date and might be 'dangerous'. Supermarkets are interested in getting us to buy as much as possible, and they don't care what we do with it as long as we come back and buy more. It's not in their interests to teach us to be economical.

[Chortle Chook]

Just picked this chain back up after a busy week. I so agree that we need to teach children to do the basics of cookery like making a white sauce and also how to stretch meat e.g. making stock from the bones and then delicious soups and stews and risottos. My OH thinks food grown at home including our eggs and apples is 'odd and probably full of bacteria' and spends oceans on ready made meals full of horrid meat from poorly treated animals. I bang on and on but it makes little difference.

[Melbourne12]

This is a hugely complicated subject. Certainly there are no easily identified scapegoats, nor easy cultural changes, that would enable a rapid solution.

 

I spent much of my early working life in various parts of the food industry, including working for a research establishment. It was quite exhilarating. We had come from rationing and genuine deprivation to an era of "you've never had it so good" in only a few years. Cheap, nourishing, hygienic food was no longer just a dream, but an achievable reality. Computing just how much sugar to add to pig feed to get best value for money didn't seem at all cruel. The piglets liked the sugar, the farmers liked the profits, the emerging food retailers liked the high turnover, we all liked the affordable pork chops, so win-win.

 

The same with all farmed animals, including chickens. We didn't look ahead to the monstrous creations of Cobb-Vantress, Grimaud, and others. When people then who worried about ethics (and there will be some on this thread) thought about animal cruelty, they were concerned with "laboratory animals" and cosmetics testing; they didn't give much thought to farming. Other activists worried about cleanliness, but didn't think about the waste involved in ensuring 100% safe food. It wasn't the idea of the (then much smaller) supermarkets to bring in "use by" dates, it was food cleanliness lobbyists.

 

Meanwhile demand was roaring upwards. Prosperity brought the desire for ever more sophisticated products, from frozen peas to the turkey twizzler and other "fast foods". And this brought into play an irresistible temptation: a wonderful balance of starch, fat, sugar and protein in one tasty and easily affordable package. The sheer cultural power of this can hardly be overestimated. Read "Round about a pound a week" by Maud Pember Reeves to realise why eating fast food is indeed living the dream for huge numbers of people.

 

And so here we are, looking aghast at the unintended consequences of what we ourselves did with the best intentions. Is part of the answer better education? As others have commented, schools no longer teach children how to cook, nor any useful aspect of home economics. A year ago, I found myself preparing lunch for a cycling club in the kitchens of a school in Liverpool (don't ask ). I was introduced to some girls in their final year who were studying "food science". As I chatted to them, it became clear that what they'd actually been taught was the food hygiene regulations. They knew nothing about food and how to cook it, never mind nutrition.

[Olly]

That's really interesting - I'd have to admit that I have never looked at the history of these changes, but I have read 'Round About A Pound a Week' and it is a fascinating and illuminating book.