PixieDust Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 I spoke to a neighbour the other day who was not impressed with our other neighbour, who keeps chickens. She and I do not get on which is a shame as we have chickens in common. She has a very large garden backing onto fields. Her WIR is just some sticks, chicken wire and fruit netting. She has one of the cheap Chinese coops and as far as I can see never shuts up either the WIR or coop. Her girls come and go at will and they have even turned up in our garden a couple of years ago. She has lost 20 chickens to foxes and one to being egg bound. I have very little time for her as she has a nasty attitude to people and treats everyone like they are her servants. My other neighbour told me that this woman has been bad mouthing me for my WIR. In her opinion it's cruel and like a battery farm. She would rather let her girls roam free even if they only live a short life, it will be happy. My WIR isnt huge but is 3.1m x 2.5m. I do intend to have supervised FR sessions for my girls too. What are people's thoughts about her opinions? Is it a better life just living it naturally even with the risk of predators? Is a WIR stifling them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavclojak Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 (edited) There was a debate recently about FR and battery hens, basically saying free range hens lead a more stressful life as they have weather/predators etc to contend with. I think your neighbour should arrange a trip to a colony unit and she would see the comparison ridiculous. No predators yes, but no grass, fresh air, sun, wind, worms digging.....need I go on... I have people collect hens and tell me they have lost hens to foxes and I think it happens to the best of us, again losing a hen to it being egg bound again can happen. She chooses to keep her hens how she chooses to keep them and that's Her businesses. I have seen your lovely WIR, I know how much thought and care you put in to it and your battles with your OH to get it right. You have nothing to prove to this woman and I wouldn't get involved in the tittle tattle TBH....let her think what she likes, smile and know how happy your girls are....again pixiedust you have a lovely set up so rise above it....it's definitely not cruel. Edited April 7, 2015 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckmum6 Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Each to there own, so long as the hens are happy and healthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 She is A neglectful owner who needs to a) mind her own beeswax b) revise her ideas on chicken keeping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PixieDust Posted April 7, 2015 Author Share Posted April 7, 2015 Tank you for your kind words. I am not fishing but just genuinely wondered what people think to WIR vs FR over all? It was prompted by her ladyship's comments, but as you say gavclojak, there are pros and cons to free range, some of which are not always considered. I must admit I was a little shocked that because I thought I had the hens welfare at heart, I may be harming them in othersways, psychologically, which I may not have considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlina Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I don't think there is a 'right' answer Idealists would say that keeping any animal constrained in any way (whether a WIR or a fabulously enriched zoo enclosure, for eg) is fundamentally wrong - that a lovely prison is still a prison Others would vehemently disagree and say that if the animal is happy, the animal is happy, end of. Personally, I let my hens FR in the day. I used to only leave them out when I was home. Now I leave them out when I'm not. In several years of keeping them nothing bad has happened. I may well feel differently if it did, but right now giving them their freedom seems, on the basis of lack of 'incident' the happier outcome - while being fully cognisant that such an 'incident' might change my mind. I know I'm putting them at risk, but I'm very much of the mindset that we should allow our kids/whatever some risk so they lead happier lives. That absolutely doesn't mean that I think that anyone who does things differently is 'wrong' I think all we can do, in any area of life, is educate ourselves, think about the best way of doing whatever that accords with our means and beliefs and do that to the very best of our ability. And unless we are a wise sage with the 'ultimate truth' at our fingertips we have no right to judge anyone else who has taken time and trouble to get it right and come up with a different solution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrie Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I just think of battery hens and then look at walk in runs. No comparison. Not cruel unless the chickens are jam packed and overflowing. Mine free range - I don't judge other people like your lady. Then again she sounds like a twit anyway - with or without chickens! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olly Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 It's a matter of personal choice, but if I let my hens FR without me being there, I am in no doubt that at least one would be 'foxed' within the first day. I know this because I have had to chase the fox out of the garden in the middle of the day - they wouldn't last more than an hour. Animals that are confined become listless and develop psychological problems (ever seen a polar bear at the zoo ?) I don't think hens in a suitably-sized run with some perches and distractions show any of those signs. Yes, if given the choice no doubt all hens would choose to free range but they're not capable of assessing the risks - we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mullethunter Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I agree with merlina, I don't think there is a right answer. I definitely don't think a WIR is cruel, unless the hens are really crammed in without access to enough food, water, dust etc (which I certainly haven't seen any evidence of from anyone on this forum), and certainly my four have just the extended Eglu run whilst I'm at work. When I manage to sneak a look at them without them knowing I'm there they always look content and aren't clammering to get out. However, I do think that they would always prefer to range whereverr they liked. And I don't agree with the opinion referred to by gavclojak that free ranging causes stress of worrying about predators etc. I don't think they worry unless they are being chased / can see a predator. But as Olly says, a chicken can't assess risk whereas a human keeper can. A chicken is NOT a wild animal, it is a domesticated animal which has been bred as such, we have already removed it as a species from its natural environment so perhaps we have a duty to provide some sort of protection? Interesting discussion. But no Pixiedust, in the context of a WIR as people on this forum have, they aren't cruel. In my opinion your neighbour is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackrocksrock Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 It is very much personal choice due to the circumstances you live in - I am in the country and have a hedge and fencing round my garden - the hens have taken to going through the rylock fencing and into the field behind us with 2 sheep and horses - they come back to eat and drink and go to bed and get grain in the middle of the day - I have tried blocking off their exit but they just fly up on the fence posts and walk along the barbed wire - they seem happy come back with bulging crops and lay me large eggs every day - I only have the 2 and just hope there are no foxes which we have never seen - but never say never and they are so happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alis girls Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Well if its cruel - then prosecute a whole load of us on Omlet myself included. Oh and tell her madamship to butt out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I have a colleague who lives on a farm and keeps chucks (very much as pets, not part of the farm, as such) she lets her chucks freerange all day, unsupervised and takes the odd loss to foxes as part of nature. I don't think she is cruel for taking that view and as far as I'm aware, she doesn't think I am cruel for only letting my hens FR when I'm around - the rest of the time my chucks are in their 4m Cube Run, not ideal, perhaps, but significantly better than many colony chucks' environment. I'd be very upset to lose a chuck to a fox, but I do know that others feel differently and that the odd loss to foxes is the price we (and the chucks) pay for them being completely free. All in all, I'd tell Mrs Know-it-all neighbour to butt out - there's more than one way to keep a chicken! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alis girls Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 i havent got a bottomless pit of money to keep replacing my girlies so want to hang on to them as long as poss. take no notice of mrs nosey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat tails Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 If I could, I would definately free range my chickens all day. Sadly enough I live in a very urban environment, so that is not an option. (I had to pluck the ladies from a neighbours garden on a early Sunday morning... Not ideal!) Luckily foxes are non existent here, so I do leave them in my garden, when I go shopping. But can't leave them in the garden all day, because of their own mischief. There are plenty people around here that do have large gardens/fields, who have permanently free ranging chickens. There a things to say for both. I never see the free ranging chickens just flop down in the sun, where as my chickens will do that in any patch of sun in the garden. But if a WIR would be cruel, what about horses in small fields (they have evolved to be nomads, travelling dozens of km a day), what about dogs who are kept alone (they are pack animals and can suffer great anxiety when left alone), what about budgies kept in small cages (they are meant to fly km a day, most cages only let them hop from one stick to another), what about cats that are forced to live with other non related cats (they are sollitary animals that can suffer severly from the stress of other cats sharing the same domain) and I could go on and on. If you care for the wellfare of any of these animals, you would always strive to minimise and stress/boredome etc. by enriching there environment, but there are limits to everything. And bigger is not always better and safer I agree that chickens are thoroughly domesticated and have come to live with the environment we offer them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 My BIL refers to my hens as battery hens (he is a complete tool who I would not spit on if he was on fire). He has a farm so can give his flock a paddock but I can't do that. Where I currently live an electric fence is impractical so without a run the foxes/badgers/cats/rats would murder my hens. I am extremely fond of gardening so although my flock get to roam around when I am with them I don't want to have the garden ruined by hens or looking like a high security yard with flowerbeds blocked off everywhere. My flock are 5 years old and live very happy lives. Leave snotty knickers to her flock and you stick to yours as clearly you are doing what is right for you and your hens. People are such a nuisance sometimes, think I may live on an island. *goes into full grumpy middle aged woman mode* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chortle Chook Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I think it is very much a case of 'horses for courses' or 'hens for pens' as the case may be. My chickens free range all day every day across the full length of my 20m garden, and clearly love it, but then I am very very lucky. I think 'sacrificing' hens to the fox is a humanitarian issue and I've fallen out with someone who was once a friend because she has let 4 separate lots of hens be killed just because she can't be bothered to sort out their safety. One thing I have noticed with my hens free ranging so much, is that they seem to be more subject to pests and diseases caught from wild birds - and I'd go in for a nice sized WIR if I started over. Changing now, however would be difficult because of all the mature shrubs that have grown up in the garden which would make locating a good sized WIR rather difficult. I don't think OH would agree to cutting the shrubs down unless we saw a fox about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavclojak Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 i asked my girls what they thought and they said NO... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat tails Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Wow Gav! I think your WIR might be the size of my total garden! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mullethunter Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 That is awesome - what lucky girls. Is it covered? No wonder they don't need to come out to FR very often Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavclojak Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 (edited) Ah thanks guys, it is half roofed with corrugated plastic and the remainder is covered with a steel mesh, they have a nice large area and they are allowed in to the garden a couple of times a week. The section to the right is the area I fence off when new ladies arrive and they stay there for a few weeks. I just remove the netting and door when they are happy together. I'm waiting for a few more logs to be delivered for them to play on.... Edited April 8, 2015 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chortle Chook Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Yep, looks like you've got my whole garden too in the WIR - but with the advantage of a roof so chooks are protected from wild birds and foxes. What could be better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PixieDust Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 That is awesome. Just wish mine had more space. They have loads to do though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavclojak Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Ah pixiedust they really don't need that much space, my hubby is one of those guys that everything needs to be bigger faster stronger...I bet your girls are just as happy as mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PixieDust Posted April 8, 2015 Author Share Posted April 8, 2015 Well if it had been left up to my OH they would have had a netting roof and chicken wire lol. Saying that he is very clever and built Fort Knox for them. Actually, I have bought the girls a mirror tile which is apparently, like parrots and budgies, they like. It's a safety mirror with rounded edges so should be safe for them. I want to build them a swing too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavclojak Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Well if it had been left up to my OH they would have had a netting roof and chicken wire lol. Saying that he is very clever and built Fort Knox for them. Actually, I have bought the girls a mirror tile which is apparently, like parrots and budgies, they like. It's a safety mirror with rounded edges so should be safe for them. I want to build them a swing too. that's funny, mine had a swing up until last year,they honestly didn't use it at all, and as for the mirror...been there done that! Again they were not interested! What they do love is an upturned tyre, we fill it with dirt and it doubles as a dust bath while the others sit on its side and watch the goings on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
