tillycosta Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 Hello everybody! I feel I know many of you from reading all your posts although this is my first post. I'll start at the beginning....took delivery a couple of weeks ago of a green eglu and 3 lovely gingernut rangers for my 3 sons - 'Clucky' for Ben 6, 'Browny' for Jay 5 and 'Marigold' for Dylan 1. All settled in and enjoying free ranging in the garden when we've been in. No hassle to get them back in the run (following a trail of grapes!) and taking themselves off to bed so easily to be locked in safely. I was new to all this and couldn't believe how easy and enjoyable having the chooks was! Yesterday 10am, my 5 year old shouts 'Fox in the garden!' I rushed out and chased it over the fence but it had killed Browny. Shut Marigold in the run. Thought the fox had got Clucky as well as I didn't find her until an hour later (unstressed and fine). Absolutely devastating for Jay and all of us really. I chased it away 4 more times. I have learnt the hard way, but I guess I can only let the chooks out when I'm actually physically in the garden (advice from anybody would be gratefully received). So today got another chook for Jay locally. Just settling her in the run (the other 2 with us in the garden) when Complaining Neighbour (there's always something with her) tells us we can't keep chickens under the terms of our deeds........ I did check the deeds before buying, 'no livestock'. These ARE PETS! But she's having none of it, chickens are included in the livestock clause etc etc. This is turning into a bit of a nightmare - can't sleep, paranoid about the fox, keep running outside every 5 minutes (chooks are in their run). And now I've got to wait until Monday to verify the 'livestock thing' before having to probably part with the chooks. The boys are going to be so upset. Lots of advice please to a distressed person in Godalming Surrey! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 Tillycosta I am sad for you. Such a happy situation has turned into a nightmare. Firstly the fox: it knows a meal is readily available now and will definitely keep coming back. FoxWatch might be a worthwhile investment (if you keep the hens). It sends out a high noise which foxes don't like. The sound is triggered by movement and the fox eventually learns that it is making the sound happen and then keeps away. People on the forum who have had a fox problem seem to solve it with a FoxWatch. I have also found that the story of adult male urine around the garden does seem to work, so that would also be worth a try but I wouldn't rely on it. Foxes are supposedly nervous of humans so Radio 4 can be quite useful too. A farm near us uses this method - the hens have their own radio. Again, not foolproof though. Secondly your neighbour : I am sure that 3 hens in your garden does not count as 'livestock'. Stick to your story: they are pets! Is there any way of checking the law yourself without alerting any authorities? Other people on here are much more informed about this subject than I. I am sure they will have useful advice soon. Enjoy your hens and try not to worry too much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickaboo Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 Oh how sad I agree now the fox knows there is food he will be back. I don't let mine out unless i'm with them, unfortunatley. As for miserable interfering neighbour, I don't know where you stand legally - but 3 hens is no more disruptive, noisy or a health hazard than any other pet. Why don't people keep they're beaks to themselves. Good luck, don't be put off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ain't Nobody Here Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 What is it with neighbours? Foxes you can forgive (just) but people can be just . There was a post recently about just this topic with some useful advice from people. I'll see if I can track it down for you. Don't let them bully you - what are their objections exactly apart from the perceived "rules"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickaboo Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 We have been very lucky with our neighbours, but we are moving house just before christmas, and I have to say listening to some of your stories I am a little concerned that our new neighbours will have objections to the feathery friends - will have to wait and see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ain't Nobody Here Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 I found the thread I was thinking of but it was really about neighbours complaining about rats so not really relevant. However, after a search for "neighbours" I came across this one. It may be of interest/use to you. http://club.omlet.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14907&highlight=neighbours Keep us posted. I'm always waiting for the same thing to happen to me as my neighbour is scared of chickens . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 "livestock" how ridiculous for 3 chickens! If you had a huge flock then maybe! Does that mean people who have 2 cats and a dog or 3 cats are keeping livestock? I don't think so! So sorry you're having all this hassle and the upsetting fox episode but stick to your guns and try not to worry- what a horrible person to have near you! Our immediate neighbours have said they don't have any objections, in fact we chopped a tree down to make room for our chooks which meant the woman next door got more light thru her hall window so I think she's grateful! I hope so anyway, we did ask her if they were bothering her and she said no but you never know what people might do behind your back. Anyway, they're not livestock, that's just silly, don't be intimidated and let us know how it goes, we all wish you the best of luck. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatsCube Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 I have good news for you, tell you neighbour to put this in her pipe and stick it somewhere! Livestock - as defined in theRange Act and Silviculture Planning Regulations means animals of the genus Bos, horses, mules, asses, sheep and goats, but does not include wildlife designated under the Wildlife Act, exotic game animals, buffalo, swine or poultry but does include llamas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 I have good news for you, tell you neighbour to put this in her pipe and stick it somewhere! Livestock - as defined in theRange Act and Silviculture Planning Regulations means animals of the genus Bos, horses, mules, asses, sheep and goats, but does not include wildlife designated under the Wildlife Act, exotic game animals, buffalo, swine or poultry but does include llamas. fantastic, well done you, where can she (we) find this on the net? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatsCube Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 If the deeds specificaly state 'Livestock' your neighbour doesnt have a leg to stand on. Technically in the UK even if your council decided to class poultry as livestock. Livestock is even then still classed as the raising of animals for profit. Which so long as your not selling your eggs or chickens is fine. The reason deeds state this is so that properties designed for residential use are not used for business purposes and farming. If they want to persue it they can do it at there own cost, and it will be fruitless, they will just be told that they are wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinnamon Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 I just wanted to wish you luck really. I don't think your awful neighbour has a leg to stand on & I really hope this all works out for the best for you. Keep us posted - crossed fingers here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chelsea Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 wooohoo.......go and blow a raspberry at your neighbour now!!! good news! you can relax now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatsCube Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 Sorry I did mean to say though, do check the deeds, as some actaully specifically state what animals and quantities of you can keep, i.e. 2 pigs, 3 sheep etc. Again so that your only allowed enough so feed your household, not enough to sell for a profit. Thats the whole reason these deeds were made up as rediculous as they sound! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJuff Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 You can confidently remind your bothersome neighbour that 'livestock' is defined as domestic animals kept for use on a farm or raised for sale and profit. As I understand you don't live on a farm and are not selling hens or their eggs. Neighbours like yours generally don't have much of a life and interfere in others as it keeps them busy. Grow a very large and thick hedge between you if you can or offer the beautiful eggs they produce to win them round. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 Also, from what I understand, it would be no use her reporting you to anyone as deeds are nothing to do with the council, she would have to take you to court herself at her own expense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodle Posted October 27, 2007 Share Posted October 27, 2007 So sorry to here you lost one of your chooks to a fox Please let us all know how you are resolving your neighbour problem. Your chooks are all family pets and she does not have a legal leg to stand on. A neighbour of ours (at least 6 gardens away) has a whole menagerie of birds including a cockrel who wakes us all at dawn and two turkeys who 'gooble' their way through the day. We all have to be tolerant of each other. Maybe a dog who barked 20 4 7 would be more acceptable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicki9 Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 Sorry to here about your chicken. Hope your children weren't too upset. As for your neighbour, well, I hope you can prove her wrong. Good luck and let us know how everything is going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egluntyne Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 Sorry abut your poor chicken. The fox will be back, so extra vigilance will be needed. I agree with everyone about livestock etc. Tell your neighbour that you won't be bullied. It might be worth checking the deeds. Then if her house is the same as yours, you can complain about anything she does that is in breach of them...like repairing cars on the drive, parking a caravan etc. She is unlikely to be prepared to bankroll a court case that she may well lose. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightnicon Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 I'm not so sure your definitions of livestock are accurate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock says Livestock is the term used to refer (singularly or plurally) to a domesticated animal intentionally reared in an agricultural setting to make produce such as food or fibre, or for its labour. No mention of selling for profit but they are used to produce food as in eggs. it goes on to say Livestock may be raised for subsistence or for profit However this is a general reference I guess each council would have different terms so check the deeds and an anonymous call to the coucnil to check would be advisable. Neighbours can be a pain thankfully mine is fine with the hens she even thought it was a great idea that we were trying to be more self sufficient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirl Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 I don't think a back garden constitutes an agricultural setting though. Good luck with the fox and the neighbour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanchick Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 So sorry to hear about your chook. That's really bad luck especially so early on. Your neighbour would be barking mad if she was to pursue it as it could cost her alot of money. It's clear from this discussion that it's a grey area if poultry aren't specifically mentioned. And I doubt it is the council's responsibility to enforce the terms of the deeds if it's not actually council property. At least let her send a few expensive solicitor's letters (proper ones, not just from her using legal jargon) before you make any decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superjules Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 Sorry to hear your troubles. I have a friend who breeds chickens and ducks, he lets his roam free in the garden all day while he's at work and swears by "scent marking" his garden - if you catch my drift!! He reckons he's never lost a bird to a fox. You need a man to do it though. My DH isn't very obliging when it comes to the chickens so Daffodil and Marigold stay in the run when I'm not around to watch them!! Good luck with your neighbour. Some people aren't happy unless they've got something to moan about. Can you send your boys round to plead the chickens case and make her feel guilty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillycosta Posted October 28, 2007 Author Share Posted October 28, 2007 Thank you all, you kind 'chicken people'!! Your support and advice is really appreciated, I'm feeling more positive today. The first thing I did after Neighbour Complaint was return the new local Browny replacement. Well I panicked and thought that if I can return chooks/Eglu to Omlet (I believe possible as I've only had them 2 weeks) it would be the best solution but they wouldn't take another supplier's chook! We'd only had Browny replacement a couple of hours and there were no problems returning her. So....2 chooks now. Next - fox. Husband happily scenting the perimeter! If I can keep the chooks I will certainly research Foxwatch. I've got loads of questions about that but one step at a time. I'm on to the council first thing tomorrow after school run etc! to clarify the deeds. It just states 'no livestock other than domestic pets...'. Because if Neighbour believes she is right she's not going to back down and I'm sure she would take it further, so I feel I have to know one way or the other now, before we get even more attached to the chooks. Sitting tight is not an option - too stressful! Will keep you posted. Thanks again everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissinuk Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 My deeds say "no livestock, poultry or birds other than domestic pets". I took this to my MP who sent me a very nice letter saying that as long as they are kept as pets (ie we only have a few, not a flock, and they have veterinary care etc) then he does not see any problem getting 2 hens and an eglu! I also asked the council who weren't concerned unless we were getting a cockerell. You neighbour would have to take legal advice to get anywhere with this, that is enough to put most people off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olly Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 So sorry about the fox; as others on here have found, urban foxes are very bold and don't scare easily. Mine was a regular visitor, and I now only allow my chooks to free-range if I am actually out and about in the garden - fortunately, there's no shortage of jobs to do! I have also bought a Foxwatch, and since then I haven't seen the fox; I am not counting on it, so I still supervise, but before I was finding pawprints on the Eglu, and even saw him pawing at the side of the run. I'd recommend getting one - www.primrose-london.co.uk was where I got mine. Now to the neighbour; it might be worth finding out exactly what his/her objection is. People are sometimes scared that chickens will be noisy, smelly, attract vermin etc. and you can reassure her that none of that will happen. It's surprising how many intelligent well-educated people don't know that you can have chickens without a cockerel! As Snowy says, even if your deeds say 'no livestock' (and I'm not absolutely certain that the definitions given above would apply to a covenant in a house transfer), your neighbour would have to take you to court. The council are not interested in what your house deeds say. Many housing estates had clauses like that - they also had 'no caravans, no walls in front gardens' clauses which are routinely broken these days, and "Ooops, word censored!"ody bothers about them. She would have to be a bit vindictive (and have some money to chuck away) to go that far. I think I'd try negotiation/persuasion - could you offer to move the Eglu to the other side of the garden, invite her round to see how beautifully clean it is, assure her you will only have three chickens, or anything else? Really sorry you've had such a stressful start to chicken-keeping; it is such fun, and once you've taken fox precautions and won your neighbour round, you will love it. Let us know how you get on, perhaps you can get Browny's replacement back again before too long! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
