Poorly chicken

[Gailoh]

I've been trawling through the site all night but am having problems focusing because I am so angry.

We live in a HA house in Scotland, we face out on to open countryside, with one house on either side. Our gardens are separated by fencing and walls. We told our neighbours when we were getting our girls in October, they were really open-minded about it. Our girls have just started laying, as they had moulted and were pretty thin when we got them. Now they are fit, happy, and really quiet girls.

My husband was at our HA today to pay rent, when he was informed that our neighbour (who has told us to our faces she does not have a problem with them and had been encouraging her son to see them and feed them) had complained vociferously to the HA and that a decision had been made by the HA that we have 28 days to get rid of our hens.

We have our Eglu, it's run, and have just taken delivery of a link-a-bord system. We were planning to section off our back garden when the ground defrosted and the snow left, with the hens having bark and plants, and extending the height of the fencing to 6 foot, just so neighbours cats and kids and dogs can stop showing such a strong interest!

The officer told my husband that they had photos the neighbour had taken of our hens in her garden. There are two that are brave, and we'd been warned they would try and wander, but I rearranged things to ensure that they didn't get a leg-up over the fence. The neighbour had asked us what chickens ate, as her and her small son had been putting food out for them and encouraging them over, when I told her we just wanted to keep them on layers pellets and mash, but that we could give her a bag of pellets if she liked feeding them. She has told the housing association that she fears for her and her childs safety, because of the droppings and some other un-named health risk.

Ironically, it was this weekend we were supposed to be getting help to extend the height of the fence.

I can't get it into my head that our hens have to go.

We're willing to change our garden whatever way it takes to keep everyone happy, but the neighbour has made it clear to the HA that she wants them gone.

I just can't understand the lack of honesty and open-ness, we're hard working people that do they best by our animals and birds, and would hate to think we're annoying anyone.

What can we do, is there no way to keep our girls?

[Kit]

I am so sorry for you, hope that you find a way of keeping your girls.

 

 

What a bunch of mean spirited people. Have you tried to speak with your neighbour about your plans. Why not ask her to give your new plans a go and if she really does not like it then you can consider rehousing them. Is there anywhere you can go where they can write you a letter stating the low risk of catching diseases with good husbandry?

 

If you feel that you cannot speak with them try writing to them?

 

Good Luck

[emchook]

Unfortunately I dont have any advice..I just wanted to tell you that I'm so sorry to hear about this.

I really dont understand such two faced people as your neighbours ... I wonder what has happened for them to take this approach all of a sudden ?

My neighbours on one side are very strange and unfriendly .. I still havent figured out what we did to upset them !! And that was before the chooks !

 

I hope you get it resolved .. Its very upsetting and stressful when neighbours go "bad"

[Ain't Nobody Here]

What a shame and how horrible to do it behind your back like that .

 

If I were you I'd confront the neighbour in a "friendly" way, saying how surprised you are, that you thought she liked the chickens (as she feeds them), explain that there are no health risks, that you're raising the fence height and anything else you can think of to guilt trip her into changing her mind.

 

Hopefully she'll be embarrassed and might agree to withdrawing her complaint? The nicer you are to her and if she can see how hurt you are, the harder she'll find it - hopefully .

 

Good luck, keep us posted .

[chickenlegs]

I have to agree with the above, that you should continue to be nice to the neighbour, apologise and give her details of the measures you are going to take to segregate your garden and chooks from her little precious. Might even get yourself an oscar nomination

Then set out in writing your appeal to the housing association, pointing out that as yet you have had no home visit and detailing to them the improvements you are making. If you speak to the neighbour first, include her reaction to your plans only if they are positive, I think she sounds sufficiently two-faced enough to provide you with some ammunition

Regards Theresa

[Blodri]

All the above is good advice. Have you thought about contacting your local Councillor to help - they should have contacts in the HA (I'm a councillor but not sure how it works in Scotland). Does your HA have tenant reps - they may be able to help. Do you have a local Citizens Advice - they can provide excellent legal advice free?

Good luck!

Ola

Flavia

[Cinnamon]

It sounds to me like the problems are caused by your hens free ranging,so is it an option to keep them in their run or to build a walk in run,maybe?

[Tara.F]

so, have I read this right?

your neighbour asked you what food they liked....in order to lure the hens into her garden so she could photograph them as 'evidence' of her complaint?

 

Then the HA considered this 'evidence' without informing you and reached an arbitrary decision without any attempt at consultation or mediation?

 

I think you have been treated very badly....twice

 

I certainly would not have it in me to be civil to such a snide. I would take advice either from someone like citizens advice or the law society. Keeping hens is very popular, it's green, it is in keeping with government moves towards home food production.

Maybe even invite environmental health to report on your nice clean set up as your own evidence that no health concerns are justified.

 

People can be just vile can't they?

Please please please let us know how you are getting on! I shall be worrying about you!

[Gailoh]

Thank you so much for all this info and support.

Will keep all updated on what happens next, still feel like such an idiot for not seeing what kind of person this lady was, we'd just taken delivery of lots of Omlet egg boxes to start gifting our girls eggs to her and our other neighbours.

We are still going to go ahead with the fencing, and wait and see if we actually get anything in writing from the HA. I understood that it was only if your pets/animals caused noise or smells that they could be called a problem, and since ours do neither, I can't understand how the Housing Officer could flatly decide that we must get rid of them. We would bend over backwards to keep everyone happy and can show this, so we will, it just feels like a total intrusion.

This woman feeds wild birds, so it's been suggested we complain about the fieldmice and rats that attracts, since our chickens food is in their Grub tubs, or stored away. But I'm not a vindictive person. Maybe that is the problem! Our hens have been vaccinated, and are wormed and healthy, unlike some of the wild birds at the moment. Not that they will be in contact with her ever again, but still. I think regarding our chickens as a health risk is insane.

Our CAB is understaffed so can't give advice today, am thinking an invite to our local Environmental Health team and councillor, plus a call to the local paper might just be in order.

[legend21]

I am so mad, I really sympathise with you, we all do. You have had a lot of good advice and it is not over till the very end, I think you have a very good case. Please let us know how you get on

 

Jackie,

 

thinking about you

[docsquid]

Don't know what to add, but you have my sympathy. If you offer to show the HA, along with Environmental Health, and your local Councillor, the conditions under which you keep the chickens, and invite your neighbour along at the same time so she can comment, then they will quickly be able to see who is being reasonable and who isn't. Plus it puts her on the spot and she will be forced to make her allegations in front of witnesses and to your face.

 

Hugs, and best wishes.

[redfrock]

I am going to stick my head above the parapet on this one. I am a Housing officer for an HA and have been for many years. There is very little I haven't dealt with. The first thing I would ask is if you checked your tenancy agreement? I would imagine that you would need to get permission to keep animals and this would include chickens. Was this done in the first instance? Also were you aware that your chickens were going into her garden? It is one thing for them to want to feed them over the fence but another if they find them regularly free ranging in their garden, so I think Cinnamon's point is a good one. I take it the HO has not carried out a home visit? This is something that I would expect them to do, so that they could look at the set-up and the situation. You are also allowed to ask to see the photos so that you can see what it is exactly that they are complaining about. The HA needs to confirm in writing that they are giving you 28 days to rehome the chickens and the reason behind it. You can ask for the EHO to get involved if they are claiming it is the risk of disease. Are you cleaning them out regularly and also cleaning their poos up from the garden when they free range? You may think these are awkward questions I am asking but they are the things I would look for if I was doing a HV.

 

I think involving the Councillor would be too strong a step initially. Put in writing your appeal to the HA, stating your case and contact the EHO for an informed, unbiased opinion and see how you go

 

Hope that helps

[Gailoh]

Wow, everyone, thank you, I wish you were our neighbours now!

Just so you all can understand, I did stop them wandering when she didn't take the pellets we offered her if she wanted to feed them, partially so we could see how much they were eating every day and control their intake of wormer and so on, partially as she has a big ridgeback cross sometimes staying with her, and partially as I thought how I'd feel if my neighbours had creatures that popped over when they felt like it!

Either myself or my husband is at home all day, and we can see what our chickens get up to, we've had some foxes sniffing around, and we're only new to our girls, so we have been very attentive, like new parents really.

Our cats are housecats, as we didn't want them messing in other peoples borders or killing all the wild birds we get around here. We're considered odd as we carry poop bags with our dogs, as we're in the country no one else bothers, but having trained in biological science, animal health and welfare, I know exactly what they have in their waste and would hate to think of my animals making anyone ill, or worse.

I called our HO out in December/January as we needed help applying for some help with Council Tax, and she enquired after our menagerie, and had a look in our garden at the chickens and their Eglu. I told her that we'd gotten a wooden coup with them, but that it was hard to clean out, and with this I could do it in minutes, she didn't seem critical then.

I feel like we've been treated unfairly, and your comments all make me see that I'm not totally wrong about that.

We haven't had anything in writing yet, but are going to head to the DIY store a day early to buy our fencing supplies. I feel very strongly that we're not doing anything wrong at all, and that we can adapt our garden so that no one ever could complain.

Will update as and when anything happens, am ill just thinking about it all, but feel more armed with the truth now.

[AmberSky]

I really feel for you, we had good relations with out neighbours until out of the blue the wife stood on their back garden f ing and blinding shouting to shut our dog up, who i was playing with and she got a bit excited.

 

ever since then we have not spoke and the husband has constantly being doing diy hammering most days which is annoying as i work split shifts and like a snooze in the afternoon.

 

Also a few months ago they also purchased a dog and it yaps twice as much as ours.

 

My solution was to build a 6' high fence all around my garden, it ruins my view but at least i do not have to put up with their intimidation, i also hear them arguing blue murder with themselves and shouting at their 2 kids, they are a bit of a phyco family for sure, they even had a go at the neighbour on the other side and she is over 70!

 

But anyway i would go for the fence!

[sparkysmum]

Just a thought. I see from a previous post that you called the HO out in Dec/Jan and she saw the hens & Eglu. She didn't say anything at the time to suggest that keeping poultry was contrary to your conditions of tenancy. Perhaps you could therefore argue that you have the HA's implicit permission to keep your ladies. This being so, your neighbour would have to prove that your hens were causing a nuisance before you could be asked to rehome them.

 

Wishing you loads of luck. Allison

[The Dogmother]

If the HO saw your set-up, then it is back to them I'm afraid; they will need to explain why they didn't act or comment at that time.

 

From my experience, it is normal practice, in any rented accommodation, to ask the permission first of the landlord, be they HA or private. If this permission wasn't gained, then I can see that they mayn't be too happy.

 

As for the neighbour, you will have to examine all the hard evidence (not hearsay) and see how the land lies.

[Patricia W]

I don't know if HA's are different, but I have a rented house and I know that as a landlord I can't " unreasonably" withhold permission for pets etc - even thought there is a clause in the contract I use which says " no pets". I've only had one set of tenants who wanted pets ( a cat) and I was only too pleased to agree on the condition they paid for any damage etc.

 

I think your HA is not wanting to upset your neighbour and would have continued to ignore the hens if she hadn't complained. The way she seems to have gone about it seems unethical so I think you should make them aware of that. And see if you can bring her round - at least find out why she has been so sneaky!

 

I do hope you can keep them.

 

Tricia

[Gailoh]

So our troubles rumble on, with our HA clearly being harangued by a neighbour with a vendetta. Apparently, in our small cul-de-sac, half the houses have been investigated by one body or another, all instigated by one neoighbour.

This neighbour who still won't talk to us face to face, had been given by our HA the changes we've started making, and that are carrying on this week. We've made a raised bed using link-a-bords and bark chips for the Eglu. We erected a large fence so that our chickens can't use our bins or steps to hop over the border wall. We have panels of PVC coated wire-fencing that is attractive to neighbours on order, but that isn't being delivered until later this week. Our Eglu has been moved to the other side of our garden, as far away from the neighbour as possible to be.

Our neighbours who haven't complained are completely shocked at what is unfolding, as they love the chickens, can't hear anything about from some happy clucking, and love getting eggs. They offered to provide a reference or provide evidence that they have been delighted with their chicken neighbours.

Our house is at the very edge of a small rural village, our garden borders onto open fields.

Our HA have said that they've spoken to EH, and they'd be worried about a smell coming from the chickens, the noise they make, and the possibility of attracting vermin. They haven't carried out a report, merely popped a head over our fence. When we contacted them today, it turns out the EHO thought that keeping four chickens in a 49msq garden was highly unusual. We informed him that our chickens feed gets brought back into the house at night (partially to not attract vermin, partially because of the snow/freezing conditions). Our Eglu was bought because it was so easy to clean, and we do this as a matter of import a few times a week. We disinfect and have no mites or anything on our hens that would be a health risk. They are wormed, and have come on leaps and bounds since we got them, and are now healthy, happy and laying.

The noise factor that the EHO brought up was that neighbours would perhaps be bothered by the sound that the chickens make, but this was never in the original complaint, and I'm at home all day, and can only hear low clucking sounds at most (unless there's a cat about).

The man from the EHO told us that we should not carry out the changes to our garden if the HA are going to insist that we get rid of the hens, as they would be expensive and a waste of time.

The original complaint was that the hens were encroaching on the neighbours garden. This complaint changes as every issue is tackled by us.

After tackling the HA, they now say that the hens roaming, the smell that comes from them, and indeed everything to do with them is the problem. Despite originally coming out to view our hens and their set-up, and being happy with it, they have now done a U turn. They are now insisting that we get rid of the chickens or face breaking our tenancy agreement. Where do we turn now?

[legend21]

your local councillor would be my first port of call I would have not hesitation in phoning my MP and speaking to his or her representative, telling the the HA are messing you about changing the goalposts and how upset you are and that the other neighbours support you

 

Give them a call

[keyhole kate]

Personally I would talk loudly in the garden saying if the hens go you are going to get a rottie and teach it to bark constantly just kidding

 

It does sound as though the HA are starting realise that your neighbours are the type that would fight with themselves in a dark room I would carry on making your changes keeping you HA informed go round and speak to other neighbours approach this situation with your HA as you being the one victimised you may also find by approaching other neighbours in your cul-de-sac that they have also been the focus of this sad individual complaints this will take away there reliability and how genuine there complaints are.

 

Remember there is always more than one way to skin a cat

(sorry any cat lovers I have cats too )

[Tara.F]

fight fire with fire

 

This neighbour is making such a fuss....the HA would anything to shut her up regardless of fair play.

 

So make more fuss than her.

 

I would rope in every single advocate I could find, the friendly neighbours, councillor, MP, local papers, radio stations, the Green Party representative even us! I'd be happy to send you letter stating (as an eglu owner) how clean they are etc.

Get solicitor letters, demand to be given written information on your rights of appeal, speak to citizens advice.

Find out who else she's complained about and why. See if they'll write a letter for you.

Ask to see copies of everything written about you...I bet there's an 'act' that says they have to show you!

 

I have a very similar neighbour......after many complaints and episodes of screaming at me through my letterbox (she even swore at my elderly mother) she finally went too far when she sent the police to my daughters sixth birthday party

The police put a flea in her ear....and I'm afraid I threatened her with violence and touch wood, she's been quiet since.

These people are bullies, stand up to them or it will not stop!!!

[Ain't Nobody Here]

I can't understand why the hens "roaming" is still an issue when you've taken steps to prevent that . Also, what is this smell that's supposed to come from your hens? Do you notice a smell? My girls are right beside my house and even when there's poop waiting to be picked up, there is no smell whatsoever.

 

I agree, fight for this.

[Gailoh]

Just wanted to quickly update this thread to let you know that last week, despite being told that the HA would schedule, and tell us about in advance, a visit they would have with the SSPCA (!) as well as the Environmental Health in attendance, they turned up unannounced as we were getting my son ready for school.

A good thing about this is that they got to see the standards our girls live in all the time, and that their food was stored in vermin proof bins and our wing clipping and change of the garden had meant there was no way they could wander. We hadn't prepared anything differently, so they got a fair view of life in our back garden, but it again felt like we were being picked on a bit, and had been lied to.

Environmental Health were, once again, happy. They voiced concerns that chicken manure could cause a smell in summer if we ever get heat, but we clean the Eglu out a few times a week, and pick poo from the garden just in case too. I honestly can't smell anything at all from our girls, especially when faced with the normal scent of well rotting slurry we tend to have in the fields round here. They said there was a smell of 'earth' which the EH man himself admitted came from what used to be our lovely grassy garden, which the chickens have managed to overturn in their own special way.

We have been told that we can keep our four chickens, as long as we agree to be monitored from now on, which I think is ridiculous, because it's been proved we have never put a foot wrong the whole time. However, we are no longer being threatened with eviction.

We have been told we can't store their manure for compost, which we'd planned to do to use on our garden. I thought this too was unreasonable, but again, they are worried about our neighbour being bothered by a smell.

I've been around chickens when I studied at agricultural college, and in comparison to some of the set-ups I saw ours are kept in immaculate, luxury surroundings, and are clean, free of mites, and happy scratching all the grass and borders up!

To be honest, without advice from people here, and on Twitter, I really don't know how we'd have succeeded in keeping our girls, and any time and effort it takes to keep them will be worth it. Thank you so much to everyone that helped, and am now thinking of getting a pygmy goat too...

[legend21]

so so glad it has worked out for you, i know its not everything you want but to be able to keep them if great,

 

Your neighbour is a nuisance.

 

but im

 

well done for sticking with it

 

Jackie

[patsylabrador]

I've been thinking about you and am so pleased you can keep your chickens. I truly don't understand why they are treated like some kind of exotic creature that needs monitoring and I can't wait for it to become the norm to keep chickens. Good luck with your pygmy goat, I long for the time when I can get some pygmy pigs, I love pigs!