Rhapsody Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Lets discuss this. Lets discuss the pros and cons the myths and the reality.....I'm going to shut up, over to you guys.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craftyhunnypie Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 A true breeder with a good heart is not in it for the money! I also hate it when breeders mess with stuff to try & get 'the best', but the animals suffer with health problems. So very sad. Emma.x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patricia W Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 My friend has just rescued a 6 year old pedigree dog from a " puppy farm". She had been confined to a run, had no name, was never taken for walks and when she first arrived was just like my ex-bats - she was bemused by freedom. Luckily my friend has a motherly German Shepherd who has taken her under her wing and the good news is that she is now, after 6 weeks, she is a delightful dog, loves going for walk and is beginning to respond to her name. I wonder what has happened to all the other breed dogs kept this way though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Oooo, tough one, but I think the reality is there are far more dogs in this country than are wanted (evidenced by dogs' homes/rescue centres etc full to bursting and unable to take any more dogs). I gather the 'problem' breed at the moment is the poor old Staffie which has become the latest trophy dog, but which all too often ends up in the wrong hands and is then kicked out a few months down the line, for whatever reason. I tend to think that it is dog breeders in the first instance who should be regulated - at the moment I think it is much too easy to make a quick buck on a litter of puppies (and I am not claiming for one second that all, not even most, breeders do that, but I suspect it is those that do it for the money that are causing the problems). How many of them would think twice if they had to ensure that they were licensed to breed dogs and had to vaccinate, micro chip and insure etc every puppy before it leaves their care? That would be quite a dent in the profit margin? There will always be those that flout whatever law there might be for regulation of dog breeding, but surely some regulation would be better than none at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 The breeding of any animal or bird has its place - breeding a dog to do a specific job, breeding to improve health issues in a breed or breeding to conserve a rare breed for example Breeders should be more closely regulated, registered maybe or maybe we look at compulsary microchipping so its not as easy to dump dogs or cheap to breed a cross bred puppy The fact that so many puppies are bred indicates that there is a market for them - some people will always want pedigree dogs for working, showing or even status reasons or a cheap crossbred dog and I dont think that will change. I have tried on several occassions over the years to take on a dog/cat from a rescue home and I have to say I think some of the blame for the current situation actually sits with some of these places - the five or six that I have encountered have all been suspicious and even hostile, they are looking for the wonderful perfect home and the fact is that there arent enough out there - of course these places need to be careful but common sense sometimes takes a back seat - is it better for a dog to be in a kennel for 9 months or in a home thats 99% perfect? Its naive of the rescue centres to assume that they are justifiably denying someone of a dog and that they will go home not wanting one - people will go elsewhere and still get one while dogs in rescue centres die waiting for the home that is 100% perfect in every way Of course where there are bad rescue centres there are good ones, I do know that. As someone that almost weekly finds a hatchback pulling up outside my house and boxes of unwanted cockerels handed over for despatch I dont think its a good thing to be too evangelical or forceful on the subject of breeding, it switches people off completely, accurate information should be given so people have an understanding of how things work and a hope that they will think twice next time I think is the best we can expect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhapsody Posted May 19, 2011 Author Share Posted May 19, 2011 I volunteer my help adopt and foster for a large breed rescue organisation (no Staffys weirdly!) here is the write up on one dog. I didnt write it. Just under two, already had a litter (epic fail there breeder) but was spayed by the owner who bought her for £700 just 3 weeks ago. Breeder can't take her back, although initially there was an offer of stud services for her, but it's not that reason he can't take her back, nosiree, he's too busy. So we look forward to his donation to Venice's care as he's too busy to care for her. Nothing to do with her being spayed now. Too busy.... If you're too busy to take your stock back, STOP BREEDING DOGS. Goodness only knows what will happen if the puppies you sold a few weeks ago come back. Busy busy... I'm not commenting as I have so far been accused of 'having a go' and 'intimidating' on this issue. Just passing stories on that make me think the way I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlotta Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 There are good breeders and there are bad... That's it. My breeder is a show exhibitor and judge and breeds to improve the breed (health etc as well as showing). I had to sign a contract when I got them to say they would go back to them if I couldn't keep them for any reason and carries out a whole flurry of health checks. You hear a lot about hybrid vigour with cross breeds, but most of the time breeders of these dogs won't have had ANY health checks done for either of the parents. I worry about people being sucked into buying 'designer' breeds like labradoodles/cockerpoos with none of the careful health checks/selection of suitable sire for similar money to a carefully bred pedigree breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Surely what is missing from that write up is why the dog has been offloaded by its new owner to a rescue home after just 3 weeks - presumably they are completely blameless for their impulse purchase? If thats meant to be a write up to rehome the dog then its way off mark - why would I feel encouraged to go and meet a rescue home that does write ups like that, its an out and out rant and tells me nothing about the dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I agree with Tasha - I used to do write-ups for my foster dogs. It needs far more information about the dog rather than being a character assassination of the previous owner by the writer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwing Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I volunteer my help adopt and foster for a large breed rescue organisation (no Staffys weirdly!) . Perhaps thats because Staffies arent actually a large breed and are a medium sized dog according to the Kennel Club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Well said Redwing and Claret, whilst the views expressed in that write up may well be very valid, they do nothing to help rehome poor Venice. Sorry to be very dim, but what breed is Venice, her write up doesn't say and that would be one of the first things a prospective owner would want to know, I'd have thought, along with what her temperament is like, could she live in a home with children/other dogs etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Chick Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I am against puppy farms, however, who are any of us to judge on responsible breeders.... Yes there are unwanted dogs in homes.... Using that logic, every single one of us on here should only get ex batts if we are against breeding and pro rescue. My own dog is a rescue dog (found him in a cardboard box in a skip, close to death aged 6-8 weeks old - he's now 16), had I not have found him would I have bought a dog from a breeder... Probably, if I'd vetted them. As for the write up, I agree it needs considerable re-writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arwesa Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 What situation is that? If you refer to the irresponsible and unregistered breeding of dogs that goes on day in day out in our cities then Im 100% against that. However, I find your blanket anti-breeder attitude offensive in the extreme.... If I were are bias as you I could/ should argue against all chicken breeding on the basis Im anti battery farming of chickens...... I also believe there are different issues depending on the breed. Our dogs live to perform the function they were bred for and have a happy and mentally exciting life, only those worthy of being bred from are and their offspring is sold to other working homes. I could go on about health tests, or breeding COI etc. but its unlikely to be of interest to the narrow minded who know nothing of responsible dog breeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooks Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 ooh your first post on the forum, how very to to the point. My views are that as long as the breeder is responsible, and lets face it a lot are then I see nothing wrong with it. I have had rescues and puppys from breeders in my lifetime and both have their merits. I disagree strongly with people rehoming their pets willy nilly though which I think is far more of a problem than breeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Chick Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I disagree strongly with people rehoming their pets willy nilly though which I think is far more of a problem than breeding. Good point Cookie Monster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 As a regular contributor to and reader of dog rehoming forums, and someone who has always had rescue or foster dogs, I am not happy myself about the number of dogs available for rehoming, stuck in pounds or given up by their owners for whatever reason, there are a great many people - most of them volunteers - who work to rehome these dogs and keep them out of pounds/death row. For that reason I am against the unplanned, thoughtless and wanton breeding of dogs... or any animal for that matter. My grandparents used to breed working dogs, mainly spaniels, a few lurchers and terriers; they bred selectively, with great forethought and only when they knew that they had homes for any of the litters. With this in mind, I planned to get Ruby as a puppy.... my first non-rescue of my own after 6 years without a dog. I saw her parents, looked into their carefully documented lineage and knew exactly which combination of breeds I wanted in this lurcher. I see nothing hypocritical about that, much as I would happily buy chickens from a responsible breeder. I agree that too many dogs end up being dumped - my new lad was dumped out of a moving van in Ireland and found running up and down a dual carriageway. In cases like these, education of these folk is a hard slog and perhaps unrewarding, but we all try, carefully, tactfully and with understanding to help them to see the right way. Hold onto that passion folks, but rein it in and direct it carefully - it's a useful tool, but a Pandora's box if not used carefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlotta Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 As a regular contributor to and reader of dog rehoming forums, and someone who has always had rescue or foster dogs, I am not happy myself about the number of dogs available for rehoming, stuck in pounds or given up by their owners for whatever reason, there are a great many people - most of them volunteers - who work to rehome these dogs and keep them out of pounds/death row. For that reason I am against the unplanned, thoughtless and wanton breeding of dogs... or any animal for that matter. I'm not sure you can place the blame on the breeders for this. Without people buying unsuitable dogs and then giving them up 5 minutes later (much like the owner of the dog in the write up) there wouldn't be breeders filling the demand. Consumers (owners) need to make their choice of dog more carefully to ensure rehoming levels fall. That being said a GOOD breeder will vet you as much as you are vetting them to make sure the dog is going to the right sort of home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dogmother Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Yes, you're right karlotta, I should have elaborated more it's the same as educating consumers about buying non-battery eggs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beach chick Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I do think there is a huge difference between Proper Breeders - ie those who carefully select for the right qualities, who health check, who vet new owners etc etc, are usually involved in showing, agility, working etc - and the 'others', who are in it for a quick buck. Personally I think it would be a great shame if proper breeding stopped - the last couple of hundred years of selection have given us the enormous diversity of dog breeds that we now have, meaning that people can choose between a chihuahua or a great dane for example. (leaving aside the potential health issues in some breeds due to interbreeding, which are being addressed - but these things do take time). Breeds are recognisable for their qualities, and this is very helpful to potential owners - Labs are great with kids, terriers like to dig, collies need masses of exercise etc. these generalisations help people choose what they want from a dog. Having said all that, I have a rescue dog, and would not 'buy' a dog when there are so many needing good homes; the breed rescues do a great job and they are really really helpful. and in fact we added quite a large donation to the fee we were charged.... still way short of the mark for a pedigree Lab though! I agree with whoever said the rescue centres could be spectacularly unhelpful but sometimes they are damned if they do, damned if they dont. my tuppenyworth! but good thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlotta Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Yes, you're right karlotta, I should have elaborated more it's the same as educating consumers about buying non-battery eggs. Absolutely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavenders_Blue Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 As others have already touched on, there is more than one 'issue' with the breeding of dogs - irresponsible breeding and irresponsible buyers/owners. For so many dogs to be bred suggests that there is a market for them. Puppies are cute and fun and people often buy them without thinking at all about the long term commitment involved. I saw only today that a former colleague of mine has posted pictures on her facebook page of her new springer spaniel puppy. I can almost guarantee that this is a disaster waiting to happen -she doesn't have a great track record with pets, and I can't imagine for one second that she will have considered the fact that this dog will grow up to be a large, boisterous animal who will want to be walked for two hours every day (and more!). More than likely this dog will end up in a rescue centre within a couple of years. An example of irresponsible purchasing. But of course there is irresponsible breeding too, and this also needs to be tightened up on. Compulsory chipping and vaccination would be a good start. Basically, regulations need to be stricter all round. There should be a way of regulating the breeding of dogs and also the purchase of dogs. I don't really know how this could be done, but it needs to be. I have no problem with the responsible breeding and purchase of dogs - working dogs, for example, need to be bred for particular characteristics and this only comes with careful breeding. For pet ownership, there needs to be more work done on helping people to consider and understand the long term commitment that comes with dog ownership, that a dog needs to be taken care of, come rain or shine, whether you feel up to it or not. By the way, I will only ever have rescued pets myself. Using the ex batt analogy someone mentioned earlier, that's exactly how I feel - I personally couldn't buy hens from a breeder knowing there are hens in cages desperate for freedom. But that's my choice and each to their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pagesguineas Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Personally I hate this 'perfect' dog culture we have now. You see traits bred into dogs by breeders for the simple fact that the dog looks in some way better, rather than producing a healthy happy animal. Pugs that are selectively bred to have more folds in their face and Daschunds (sp?) bred to have shorter legs and an elongated back. I believe dogs should be bred for their characteristic and health and in the case of working dogs for the qualities needed for them to do the job with ease. Part of the reason I hate Crufts! All the dogs on there have been bred to a specific set of criteria, but why does it matter how tall/short they are, how broad/slender they are compared to the 'ideal' for the breed? A dog is a companion or a working partner, not something to show off as being the most perfect example of a particular breed! My poor Copper was bred by a very highly regarded breeder in her field, and he was meant to be a show dog as his markings were perfect. When he grew an inch taller than the breed standard he was left in a kennel to rot while she worked on the dogs who were more perfect than him. We got him and he had not been socialised properly, was scared of humans, traffic, other bigger dogs and would literally cower in a bush when a bus came past or run away when someone bent down to pet him. Guess he is why I am so opinionated on this topic! I agree with rescue homes being too picky, isn't it better to find a good home for a dog to get him/her out of kennels? If you refuse a person a dog from a shelter then they're only going to try and find a bargain dog from a breeder....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seagazer Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 There are good and bad breeders and you take a chance no matter what dog you get. We had a wonderful crossbreed (Sally) from Battersea who lived with us for 12 1/2 years and who was a staffie cross. Doesn't mean she was a bad dog. We struck lucky. Next time we tried we went by Battersea's suggestion and got a collie cross and she was an absolute nightmare - in fact Battersea were no help when I phoned several times in tears as she was harrassing me and my cats the whole time. I hold my hands up, I tried for 6 weeks but when bitten for the 2nd time in one day, enough was enough and we took her back. We then got Cookie, yes a so called designer dog! We only managed to get her as her lovely breeder refused to sell her to a family that had gone to see her. The children were too unruly and she knew that Cookie would probably end up the same way or not cared for. Thankfully my kids are well behaved. This breeder had hip scores and eye test results for all of her dogs and I know Cookie's heritage (champion poodle Grandmother). Sally and Cookie are both on a par for being sensitive, beautiful dogs and we couldn't have wished for better dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mollyripkim Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Sorry but I have to respond in favour of responsible dog breeders. I have a dachshund, standard wire haired, because she has short legs and long back does not mean she is not a happy and healthy dog, she walks with me in the forest every day with other bigger dogs and can keep the pace up, she is very muscular as I do believe that any dog should be fit and this muscle gives some protection to her back. I don't see how this is any different to lionhead and lop eared rabbits who are also bred for particular characteristics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paola Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 I volunteer my help adopt and foster for a large breed rescue organisation (no Staffys weirdly!) here is the write up on a dog. I didnt write it.Just under two, already had a litter (epic fail there breeder) but was spayed by the owner who bought her for £700 just 3 weeks ago. Breeder can't take her back, although initially there was an offer of stud services for her, but it's not that reason he can't take her back, nosiree, he's too busy. So we look forward to his donation to Venice's care as he's too busy to care for her. Nothing to do with her being spayed now. Too busy.... If you're too busy to take your stock back, STOP BREEDING DOGS. Goodness only knows what will happen if the puppies you sold a few weeks ago come back. Busy busy... I'm not commenting as I have so far been accused of 'having a go' and 'intimidating' on this issue. Just passing stories on that make me think the way I do. I am returning to the UK and am seriously thinking about getting a rescue dog.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
